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Switch to Forum Live View The State of Black Africa
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2008 - 9:58PM #1
Truth27
Posts: 523
Greetings,

SaintAtheist made a comment on the 'Why!' thread suggesting that 'blacks' are inherently inferior because they are at 'bottom' all over the world.  I thought I'd flesh out thoughts about that with regards to the recent 'source' of most 'blacks' (within the past 500 years); Africa.  Do people associate the failures of the 'black' nations of Africa with African American struggles for equality?  In my opinion its an apples and oranges comparison.  While both problems arose with European expansion 500 years ago, the histories and experiences of Africans were different in flavor (if not substance) from those of African Americans.  Both African Americans and the diverse people of sub-Saharan Africa faced exploitation for European financial gain.  However, wholesale 'kidnapping' and enslavement in a differrent land is distinct from the typical divide and conquer tactics used by Europeans on all of the less socially organized groups that they encountered in order to colonize them.  The core of Africa's problems derive from profoundly corrupt leadership, informed by the tribal antagonisms aroused by Europeans.  African Americans were 'robbed' of their tribal identities as a result of chattel slavery.  Thus their main issue involves confrontation of a system that has been stacked against them due to the economic gain (and 'white' social cohesion) that could be derived from stigmatizing them based essentially upon the color of their skin.  Barring South Africans, most Africans have no clue what this feels like on a systematic level.  So to make broad statements such as those of SaintAtheist is inappropriate IMHO.

Peace.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 2:24AM #2
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
i have various thoughts related to this subject. for example, what is this "bottom"?

my family has been in jamaica since a little before the mid-nineteenth century. bunch of germans and scots brought into serve as a buffer between the english and newly freed slaves. not africa, but another former colony and a black nation now... and in any case, it's one of those places american tourists get off cruise ships and tour for a few hours or days, whereupon they break down into tears because of "the poverty."

now surely there is poverty. but what fascinates me is that tourists don't get to see it and come back alive to tell tales. in fact, neither do natives really. so what is this "poverty"? not wearing shoes and having no glass in the windows? it's a tropical island, for pete's sake.

i went to china. this kid of about 20 (*ahem* ;>) was on the trip too.. it was his first time out of the country. he was miserable the whole time because of "the poverty." i didn't know what he was talking about. we were american tourists; you know we weren't going to any truly poor areas. was it the squat toilets? ok. they were on the floor, but they were fully plumbed. and there were giant TVs everywhere. even the yurts. was it the yurts?

this is important to me because, for example, in jamaica there's a lot of do-gooding. the place is swarming with missionaries in particular right now. things that have been done to "raise the living standard" have included razing tropical forest to create tract housing... destroying watersheds and creating drought on a tropical island!

ok. africa. so there's a huge difference between african americans and africans. bigger than a lot of african americans understand themselves. this is sad for me to say, but black non-americans also do not think highly of black americans for all the usual reasons -- being uneducated and uncouth, etc. etc. africans do sort of have claim to resources that african americans don't and they can claim a proprietor's pride that they don't believe african americans can.

on the other hand, it's a "sort of claim." i think there are similarities in the problems they face. western companies are still in there, occupying those resources, and i think they do even less than they did before... in the sense that the various colonizing countries changed everything, and when they pulled out, they pulled the plug on "the juice" cold.

it's like, introduce western medicine... but whoops! can't run a refrigerator anymore to keep it.

in jamaica, still linked to the U.K., although independent.. there were 1700 murders in one year a few years ago. the U.K. has all its "humane treatment" standards. capitol punishment is not allowed etc. etc. ok. well, you say, humane treatment is right. but consider this: this supposedly independent nation doesn't get to make its own decisions.

at the same time, guess what, you also can't farm freeking bananas and sell them. no one will take them. WTO rules, blah blah blah.

i do see a parallel between thugs rising to the top as corrupt governments in africa or cultural superstars in the states. a hard scrabble existence makes people violent. you fight to survive.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 9:31AM #3
st.claire
Posts: 653

i do see a parallel between thugs rising to the top as corrupt governments in africa or cultural superstars in the states. a hard scrabble existence makes people violent. you fight to survive.



It's been said that "a people without power must use deception and guile." Africans who are unable to enter the mainstream economy turn to the underground economy. Unfortunately, these overlap so often that companies, corrupted leaders, and militias have figured out they can profit from all sides. The result is the visible conflict we see. But when we look closer--beyond the superfluous notion of skin color--their problems are rooted deep in colonization and its cousin, neo-colonialism, and the social pathologies that grew out of the relationship between oppressed and oppressor over the last 500 years.

The extreme violence didn't appear in a vacuum. SaintAtheist is playing Africans for rubes when the the flip side to "native" violence occurs in proximity to and manipulation by "foreign" players in their neighborhoods. Read: Europeans, Americans, Middle Easterners, and Chinese. America has NO business expanding military operations in Africa. Yet Africom is set to feed our empire. Haven't this government done enough to Africa? Now, this. The National Conference of Black Lawyers said,

In a memorandum (attached) NCBL has detailed a history of crimes committed by the U.S. in Africa. These crimes have included, among others: mercenary attacks, the [SC: violent] overthrow of democratic governments, and complicity in assassinations.

Nevermind the violent enslavement of millions of Africans or the complicit support of apartheid. These actions don't represent the ideals and actions of a people who are non-violent nor superior to Africans by any measure.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 2:24AM #4
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
i have various thoughts related to this subject. for example, what is this "bottom"?

my family has been in jamaica since a little before the mid-nineteenth century. bunch of germans and scots brought into serve as a buffer between the english and newly freed slaves. not africa, but another former colony and a black nation now... and in any case, it's one of those places american tourists get off cruise ships and tour for a few hours or days, whereupon they break down into tears because of "the poverty."

now surely there is poverty. but what fascinates me is that tourists don't get to see it and come back alive to tell tales. in fact, neither do natives really. so what is this "poverty"? not wearing shoes and having no glass in the windows? it's a tropical island, for pete's sake.

i went to china. this kid of about 20 (*ahem* ;>) was on the trip too.. it was his first time out of the country. he was miserable the whole time because of "the poverty." i didn't know what he was talking about. we were american tourists; you know we weren't going to any truly poor areas. was it the squat toilets? ok. they were on the floor, but they were fully plumbed. and there were giant TVs everywhere. even the yurts. was it the yurts?

this is important to me because, for example, in jamaica there's a lot of do-gooding. the place is swarming with missionaries in particular right now. things that have been done to "raise the living standard" have included razing tropical forest to create tract housing... destroying watersheds and creating drought on a tropical island!

ok. africa. so there's a huge difference between african americans and africans. bigger than a lot of african americans understand themselves. this is sad for me to say, but black non-americans also do not think highly of black americans for all the usual reasons -- being uneducated and uncouth, etc. etc. africans do sort of have claim to resources that african americans don't and they can claim a proprietor's pride that they don't believe african americans can.

on the other hand, it's a "sort of claim." i think there are similarities in the problems they face. western companies are still in there, occupying those resources, and i think they do even less than they did before... in the sense that the various colonizing countries changed everything, and when they pulled out, they pulled the plug on "the juice" cold.

it's like, introduce western medicine... but whoops! can't run a refrigerator anymore to keep it.

in jamaica, still linked to the U.K., although independent.. there were 1700 murders in one year a few years ago. the U.K. has all its "humane treatment" standards. capitol punishment is not allowed etc. etc. ok. well, you say, humane treatment is right. but consider this: this supposedly independent nation doesn't get to make its own decisions.

at the same time, guess what, you also can't farm freeking bananas and sell them. no one will take them. WTO rules, blah blah blah.

i do see a parallel between thugs rising to the top as corrupt governments in africa or cultural superstars in the states. a hard scrabble existence makes people violent. you fight to survive.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 9:31AM #5
st.claire
Posts: 653

i do see a parallel between thugs rising to the top as corrupt governments in africa or cultural superstars in the states. a hard scrabble existence makes people violent. you fight to survive.



It's been said that "a people without power must use deception and guile." Africans who are unable to enter the mainstream economy turn to the underground economy. Unfortunately, these overlap so often that companies, corrupted leaders, and militias have figured out they can profit from all sides. The result is the visible conflict we see. But when we look closer--beyond the superfluous notion of skin color--their problems are rooted deep in colonization and its cousin, neo-colonialism, and the social pathologies that grew out of the relationship between oppressed and oppressor over the last 500 years.

The extreme violence didn't appear in a vacuum. SaintAtheist is playing Africans for rubes when the the flip side to "native" violence occurs in proximity to and manipulation by "foreign" players in their neighborhoods. Read: Europeans, Americans, Middle Easterners, and Chinese. America has NO business expanding military operations in Africa. Yet Africom is set to feed our empire. Haven't this government done enough to Africa? Now, this. The National Conference of Black Lawyers said,

In a memorandum (attached) NCBL has detailed a history of crimes committed by the U.S. in Africa. These crimes have included, among others: mercenary attacks, the [SC: violent] overthrow of democratic governments, and complicity in assassinations.

Nevermind the violent enslavement of millions of Africans or the complicit support of apartheid. These actions don't represent the ideals and actions of a people who are non-violent nor superior to Africans by any measure.

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