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Switch to Forum Live View How can someone support the war AND be pro-life?
10 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 7:52PM #191
MedKit77
Posts: 1,384
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;296871]Nice exersise in rationalization.
And comparing an embryo to a cancer... please.. give me a break.[/QUOTE]

A cancer is an unwanted growth in the body of an individual that they have the option of having removed.

An unplanned, unwanted pregnancy ...

I think you get the picture.

An unwanted zef is just as unwelcome as a cancerous growth.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 7:53PM #192
MedKit77
Posts: 1,384
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;296885]Again, your future child is just as bad as a cancer?

Damn, we HAVE come a long way.. haven't we?[/QUOTE]

Where did I say anything about MY "future child" being "as bad as cancer" or anything even remotely like that?

If you can't address what I actually said instead of twisting my words to fit your agenda, don't bother to reply.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 7:58PM #193
MedKit77
Posts: 1,384
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;296893]Again, comparing a growing human life in the womb to some sort of cancer or parasite? I'm sorry, I want no part of that "reasoning."

I've known a few women who diid have to get abortions, because of various circumstances beyond their control. And not a-one of them thought of the choice they had to make in those terms.[/QUOTE]

It isn't necessary for you to support or have a "part" in my opinion in order for me to have one, and for it to be valid.

The fact is that a zef fits the description and definition of a parasite exactly.

parasite: An organism that lives within, upon, or at the expense of another organism (the host) without contributing to it's survival. (Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary)
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 9:57PM #194
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,750
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;296893]I agree that a large part of the problem is our society doesn't expect men to be men.. but rather spoiled boys with chest hair. Therefore, you have many "men" putting women into spots where they have no real choice but to get an abortion.

"In the case of pregnancy, a zef is using the woman's body for sustenance. It is her choice as to whether to allow the zef to continue to do so."

Again, comparing a growing human life in the womb to some sort of cancer or parasite? I'm sorry, I want no part of that "reasoning."

I've known a few women who diid have to get abortions, because of various circumstances beyond their control. And not a-one of them thought of the choice they had to make in those terms.[/QUOTE]

May I ask a personal question, mytmouse? Are you a woman? If so, have you ever had an unwanted pregnancy at a time when you barely had enough money to keep yourself fed and housed? You say your tagline is tyranny is the denial of complexity ... I wonder if you might not be missing some of the complexity of emotions and feelings in some real-life situations some people face. I doubt that many pregnant woman views the fetus as ONLY a parasite. But can that be one of the feelings a woman may have? Yes. Does the fact that a woman may have that feeling at some time during an unwanted (or wanted) pregnancy make the woman a horrible person? No.

Life is a struggle for survival. Sometimes people feel that an unwanted pregnancy as a threat to their own well-being and/or that of their loved ones. Maybe the threat is real, or maybe it's exaggerated -- but how are those outside the situation better able to judge that than the woman/couple/family who is actually living the situation? I think it takes a lot of chutzpah for those on the outside to second-guess and judge these situations.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 12:29AM #195
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=solfeggio;296720] I don't expect that Americans are all that crazy about Judaism even now.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but one of my best friends growing up was Jewish; my first lover was Israeli; my future sister-in-law is Jewish (my family is Catholic).  I picked up a streak of cynicism obout the state of Israel from my lover (he had deserted from the army, and become an exile (rather than go to prison?) out of disgust over some of their retaliatory measures), and I think that *Israel* is a somewhat uneasy topic in the US, but I haven't had to defend Jewish friends/colleagues/family against racist/sexist jokes like I have, say, gay or lesbian friends.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 12:33AM #196
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;295110]I still don't think one can escape the fact that once pregnancy occours, it's not "just" her body any more. Another person will come to be. Or, if an abortion is chosen, another person who could have been, never will be.

Therefore, there is another person to consider.. even if it is "only potential" (which IMO, is just more rationalization.)

There's just no way around that fact.[/QUOTE]

Sure.  But it's not just another person, like a stranger that you pass on the street who might or might not be your friend if you actually met them.  It's also an organism that's going to subvert your entire body to its own ends for nine months, and a person that will be totally dependent on you and take up huge amounts of resources after that. 

And none of that, btw, changes the fact that it's the *woman's* right and responsiblity to make the final call.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 1:05PM #197
faith713
Posts: 3,892
"But can that be one of the feelings a woman may have? Yes. Does the fact that a woman may have that feeling at some time during an unwanted (or wanted) pregnancy make the woman a horrible person? No. "

The unborn child is NOT a parasite, that's a biological fact. Feelings can be subjective. You can't base the worth of an individual's life on your own subjective feelings. Is honesty too much to ask for?


"I think it takes a lot of chutzpah for those on the outside to second-guess and judge these situations."

Women don't want to be judged so we shouldn't judge the unborn child.

It is human nature to want pleasure without responsibility and to expect our actions to have no negative consequences. Living with what we’ve done and finding the good in it despite how inconvenienced we might be is what responsible and mature humans do.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John14:6

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.-- John 3:16

"We love Him because He first loved us."--1 John 4:9-10

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "
1 John 4:18
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 1:30PM #198
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,750
[QUOTE=faith713;298909]"But can that be one of the feelings a woman may have? Yes. Does the fact that a woman may have that feeling at some time during an unwanted (or wanted) pregnancy make the woman a horrible person? No. "

The unborn child is NOT a parasite, that's a biological fact. Feelings can be subjective. You can't base the worth of an individual's life on your own subjective feelings. Is honesty too much to ask for?


"I think it takes a lot of chutzpah for those on the outside to second-guess and judge these situations."

Women don't want to be judged so we shouldn't judge the unborn child.

It is human nature to want pleasure without responsibility and to expect our actions to have no negative consequences. Living with what we’ve done and finding the good in it despite how inconvenienced we might be is what responsible and mature humans do.[/QUOTE]

Of course feelings are subjective. I don't think a decision of whether to continue or terminate a pregnancy ought to be made on stray, fleeting feelings such as "this fetus is a parasite" or "this fetus might be the next Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey". A thoughtful, careful examination of one's situation, the situation of the family, and one's life in general is in order in such a major life decision. The point I was trying to make in my post is that I think most women faced with an unwanted pregnancy DO give it a great deal of thought and consideration. They might have thoughts you or others consider "bad" as part of this examination of themselves and the situation. That doesn't make them bad people. We can judge actions as good or bad, and as we see here in this forum, not all will agree on the status of every action, but should we judge the person as good or bad? I think there is good and bad in everyone.  Is it better to try to understand why people act as they do than to judge them as good or bad? I think it is.
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 1:35PM #199
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

faith713 wrote:

The unborn child is NOT a parasite, that's a biological fact. Feelings can be subjective. You can't base the worth of an individual's life on your own subjective feelings. Is honesty too much to ask for?


Yet you are basing your stance on the subjective idea that there is an "unborn child" involved and that it is fully human at conception.

Women don't want to be judged so we shouldn't judge the unborn child.


Yet you judge them if they do not go along with your subjective views. Your subjective view is that abortion is murder. You are judging certain women to be murderers if they do not go along with you subjective view.

It is human nature to want pleasure without responsibility and to expect our actions to have no negative consequences.


Do you have any scientific studies to back up those claims?

Living with what we’ve done and finding the good in it despite how inconvenienced we might be is what responsible and mature humans do.


And an even more mature and responsible adult would realize that they might not want to have a child at this time in their life. That is NOT an inconvenience and for someone to use their subjective opinions to claim it was, is not mature or honest.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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10 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 2:41PM #200
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=faith713;298909]The unborn child is NOT a parasite, that's a biological fact. [/QUOTE]

Excuse me, but what would YOU call a genetically distinct organism that originates, at least in part, from outside the host organism, which grows inside a person and subverts all of the host's bodily processes (sometimes with lasting harm to the host) for its own gain, and which is incapable of performing those functions on its own?  Granted, the host gets to reproduce some of its DNA in exchange, but all that can be said of the relationship in general is that it's symbiotic (in the technical sense - two organisms living together).  Whether, on balance, the host is helped more or harmed more depends on the woman's situation at that time.  Having a child at the wrong point in her life can seriously impair a woman's future reproductive ability and/or her ability to care for her current children, in which case the extra copy of her DNA in the fetus does not make up for the long-term loss in reproductive potential. 

Those are the biological FACTS of  the relationship, which (of course) are not the only factors under consideration.
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