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Switch to Forum Live View (The death penalty in Texas works.)
9 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2008 - 12:38AM #31
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=becca97;736957].....It is ONLY through mutual co-operation, respect and valuing life ALL life not just that life we deem of value that this world society (IE ALL societies) have a hope of healing and changing for the better. ...[/QUOTE]
Well said. All life has value. It's an intrinsic value. Those that are pro death penalty place an extrinsic value on life. When something has an extrinsic value, it can easily be taken away. When that value is taken from one, it devalues the rest just a little bit more. Pretty soon you end up with a society that places little value on life and finds no compulsion against taking life away. That would not be a fit society to live in.

Intrinsic =  belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing.
Extrinsic =  not forming part of or belonging to a thing.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2008 - 3:26PM #32
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=mountain_man;739708]Well said. All life has value. It's an intrinsic value. Those that are pro death penalty place an extrinsic value on life. When something has an extrinsic value, it can easily be taken away. When that value is taken from one, it devalues the rest just a little bit more. Pretty soon you end up with a society that places little value on life and finds no compulsion against taking life away. That would not be a fit society to live in.

Intrinsic =  belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing.
Extrinsic =  not forming part of or belonging to a thing.[/QUOTE]

It often amazes me how often this is dismissed; i'd consider it some sort of positive if this pov was even considered worth exploring, sadly it is just dismissed as ridiculous, supporting murderers etc (which is utterly pathetic) ... *sigh*

beccaxx
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2008 - 3:31PM #33
dingaling
Posts: 156
Was she a convicted fellon.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2008 - 10:22PM #34
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=becca97;748833]It often amazes me how often this is dismissed; i'd consider it some sort of positive if this pov was even considered worth exploring, sadly it is just dismissed as ridiculous, supporting murderers etc (which is utterly pathetic) ... *sigh* [/QUOTE]
that would require thinking. This is an emotional issue and many do not want to think, just feel.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 2:27PM #35
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782
[QUOTE=Marcyy;703240]Druac;  I"f someone brutally murdered my loved one, I would prefer to impose the death sentence myself, but I will take it from the system if that is the best I can get"

My youngest son was murdered almost 7 years ago, just one week past his 32 birthday and 2 weeks before his wedding. It nearly destroyed me.  I kept reliving what his last day was like.  I hated the two people who killed him. This hatred was so all pervasive that it filled each day, and made my sorrow unbearable.

It wasn't until I realized that in order to survive, I had to forgive his murderers. At that point, the terrible grief and anger could be put behind me. I still felt great sadness, but anger and grief became dissipated and I could get on with my life.

I am against the death penalty. It is not about punishment, it is about revenge, and God says "vengence is mine, I will repay".[/QUOTE]

It is absolutely about punishment and justice.

I must commend you for granting forgiveness and not wanting personal revenge. That is what the Bible -- and other Holy Books -- talk about. Forgiving all transgressions and not seeking personal revenge.

The death penalty is not -- or at least should not be -- about personal revenge. It's about the state/society deeming that some acts justify some people's right to life being taken away. Just as many acts justify the state taking away a person's right to vote, to walk free, to see their family whenever they want.. and so on.

If I steal from a store -- the store owner should not seek personal revenge against me -- nor would he be right in hating me. But it is justice to hand the case over to state. And the state can and will take away some of my rights because of what I have done.

If you take a life in a premeditated murder, the state is justified in considering taking your life as a form of punishment. Indeed, some murderers actually decide they want the death penalty. (I'm thinking specifically of the case that inspired the "Executioner's Song" book and film.) They realize in their own hearts, the only way for them to find ultimate peace -- to fully and justly repay for what they have done -- is to give up their own lives.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 2:37PM #36
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782
[QUOTE=mountain_man;739708]Well said. All life has value. It's an intrinsic value. Those that are pro death penalty place an extrinsic value on life. When something has an extrinsic value, it can easily be taken away. When that value is taken from one, it devalues the rest just a little bit more. Pretty soon you end up with a society that places little value on life and finds no compulsion against taking life away. That would not be a fit society to live in.

Intrinsic =  belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing.
Extrinsic =  not forming part of or belonging to a thing.[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, the death penalty CONFIRMS the value of life. In committing premeditated, first-degree murder, the killers demonstrate a complete disregard for the value of life. It is therefore just for their own lives to be considered forfeit.

Think about it, removing people's rights for stealing cars affirms that our society places value on private property. If we didn't value it, then the state could merely say.. "who gives a crap, nothing of value was damaged."

Along the same lines, considering killers' lives forfeit affirms that we value life... especially innocent life that is taken away. The value we place on life is, well, life itself. If you decide to take life -- the value of the life you took becomes your own life.

It IS a fit society to live in. Every single state I've lived in had the death penalty. And they have all been great places to live.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 3:32PM #37
DFireheart
Posts: 70
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;750747]On the contrary, the death penalty CONFIRMS the value of life. In committing premeditated, first-degree murder, the killers demonstrate a complete disregard for the value of life. It is therefore just for their own lives to be considered forfeit.

Think about it, removing people's rights for stealing cars affirms that our society places value on private property. If we didn't value it, then the state could merely say.. "who gives a crap, nothing of value was damaged."

Along the same lines, considering killers' lives forfeit affirms that we value life... especially innocent life that is taken away. The value we place on life is, well, life itself. If you decide to take life -- the value of the life you took becomes your own life.

It IS a fit society to live in. Every single state I've lived in had the death penalty. And they have all been great places to live.[/QUOTE]

Being a "great place" is subjective.  the fact is that states...and for the most part countries, who do not have the DP have an overall higher quality of life based on average educational attainment, poverty rates, and not least, rates of violent crime than those states and countries with the DP.

The great state of Texas executes more people than any state in the US, far more.   So following the logic of DP supporters it should also be America's safest state.  It isn't by a long shot.   The rate of homicdes in Texas significantly exceeds the rate in any non-DP state.  I would like DP supporters to explain to me just why this is.

Texas, despite its oil and gas wealth, also lags behind the rest of the nation in quality of life indicators.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 10:44PM #38
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=DFireheart;750859]....The rate of homicdes in Texas significantly exceeds the rate in any non-DP state.  I would like DP supporters to explain to me just why this is.[/QUOTE]
They won't tell you but the real reason is that the DP devalues all life in general. When the government values life enough to NOT take it away they send a message to all that life has it's own value, an intrinsic value. Even the life of someone you do not like because they committed a crime has value. To take away the value of that life, is to take a little bit of value from all life.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2008 - 12:20AM #39
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;750720]It is absolutely about punishment and justice. ....[/QUOTE]
No, it is about revenge. You do not kill people for justice, you kill for revenge.

By the way... that's an all inclusive "you" not meant to refer specifically to anyone.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2008 - 12:22AM #40
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;750747]On the contrary, the death penalty CONFIRMS the value of life. ....[/QUOTE]
No, it does not. That's why in places where the DP is carried out regularly have a higher murder rate. They value life less which makes it easier to take the life from someone.

I value life and the taking of a life is wrong.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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