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Switch to Forum Live View (The death penalty in Texas works.)
6 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2008 - 10:24PM #21
mountain_man
Posts: 40,261

aquinasmind wrote:

it has nothing to do with not liking someone,


It has everything to do with just that.

it has to do with justice


It has to do with revenge. Killing someone is not justice, if it were, you wouldn't be killing someone for meeting out justice.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2008 - 10:56PM #22
Marcyy
Posts: 723
Druac;  I"f someone brutally murdered my loved one, I would prefer to impose the death sentence myself, but I will take it from the system if that is the best I can get"

My youngest son was murdered almost 7 years ago, just one week past his 32 birthday and 2 weeks before his wedding. It nearly destroyed me.  I kept reliving what his last day was like.  I hated the two people who killed him. This hatred was so all pervasive that it filled each day, and made my sorrow unbearable.

It wasn't until I realized that in order to survive, I had to forgive his murderers. At that point, the terrible grief and anger could be put behind me. I still felt great sadness, but anger and grief became dissipated and I could get on with my life.

I am against the death penalty. It is not about punishment, it is about revenge, and God says "vengence is mine, I will repay".
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2008 - 8:12PM #23
aquinasmind
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=mountain_man;703133]It has everything to do with just that. It has to do with revenge. Killing someone is not justice, if it were, you wouldn't be killing someone for meeting out justice.[/QUOTE]

Hey, like I said you can punish someone for crime and not have it be personal at all. I mean look your parents probably punished you as a kid, does that mean they didn't like you? Case in point, I mentioned my friend who was convicted of Child Molestation. My desire to see him punished had nothing to do with my feelings for the guy. Many people on death row have repented and turned their life to God and asked for forgiveness. Great! I hope to see them in Heaven, but they took an innocent life and must pay for what they did to that person and to society. Killing people for crime as I have said for the QUADRILLIONTH time (you folks don't listen around here) is not to deter crime, it is to punish crime, and make absolutely positively certain that, that individual will never harm anyone else ever again. That's the point of the Death Penalty. One inmate recently executed said for his final statement, "I took the lives of four innocent people, now I am man enough to pay with my own!" That man has my respect. I hope he is in Heaven right now! He acknowledges he has a crime to pay for so he is willing to deal with the consequences of his actions. That's what its all about.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2008 - 8:29PM #24
aquinasmind
Posts: 181
Forgiveness does not imply amnesty. One can be forgiven and still have to suffer the consequences for ones actions. I am sorry for your loss and while I respect your belief against the death penalty, I also know many people who are murder victim surviors who are in favor of the death penalty. The argument that the Death Penalty is "Vengence" is logically flawed, in that ultimately it seeks to get the listener to give in to appeal to emotion. When one hears "Vengence" one thinks of a lynching, or an angry mob with pitchforks and torches, or a posse assembled to mete out some sort of frontier justice. This does not happen currently in our Judicial System. Any indictment for Capital Murder follows a trial and appelate review process (Habeus Corpus). Our Republic was founded upon rule of law, and as such citizens agree collectively to delegate some of their natural rights to the State, most notably the right of the State to use Justifiable force to protect its citizenry. To argue that the Legal Death Penalty is essentially the same as the Murderer who took the life of the innocent victim is like arguing that a police officer who speeds to catch a speeder is just as guilty of breaking the law. This is not the case and the Constitution makes this clear. Unfortunately when I hear many arguments against the death penalty they do not have their basis in reason but in strict emotion, however our rule of law does not have its basis in emotion, but in due process, facts, and reason.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2008 - 9:38PM #25
mountain_man
Posts: 40,261

aquinasmind wrote:

Hey, like I said you can punish someone for crime and not have it be personal at all.


The death penalty is personal and is simply a revenge killing.

I mean look your parents probably punished you as a kid, does that mean they didn't like you?


Actually, in my case, it did.

....That's what its all about.


Nice story, but I don't buy it. The death penalty is revenge, not justice. Killing people is wrong. I, for one, cannot bring myself to place so little a value on a life, any live, that I'd want them dead. That would just devalue all life.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2008 - 9:39PM #26
mountain_man
Posts: 40,261

aquinasmind wrote:

Forgiveness does not imply amnesty. ....


No one ever said it did.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2008 - 5:03PM #27
aquinasmind
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=mountain_man;707898]The death penalty is personal and is simply a revenge killing.


Actually, in my case, it did.


Nice story, but I don't buy it. The death penalty is revenge, not justice. Killing people is wrong. I, for one, cannot bring myself to place so little a value on a life, any live, that I'd want them dead. That would just devalue all life.[/QUOTE]

Well quite frankly what we are left with is your opinion and my opinion. My opinion however is backed up by Legal reasoning which states that Capital Punishment does not amount to cruel and unusual punishment nor is it considered revenge. So I guess we are at an impasse here.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2008 - 7:16PM #28
mountain_man
Posts: 40,261

aquinasmind wrote:

Well quite frankly what we are left with is your opinion and my opinion. ....


Let's see... your "opinion" centers on killing people.
My "opinion" centers on the value of life - all life.

I'll stick with the more moral concept that values life.

I really don't care what a bunch of politicians and lawyers got together and made up so they can further their political gains. They don't mind killing people for those gains.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 7:06AM #29
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=dingaling;663904]Any convicted felon exsecuted by the state of Texas has ever gone on to kill again.[/QUOTE]

Pierrepoint, the last hangman in the UK has this to say about what he did for his life ....


[COLOR="Navy"]"It is I who have faced them last, young lads and girls, working men and grandmothers.

I have been amazed to see the courage with which they walk into the unknown.

It did not deter them then and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder."
Albert Pierrepoint, Chief Executioner 1934 - 1954[/COLOR]

I reckon we need ot be a little less quick to use death as a solution to our problems, nor should decisions on those so called 'deserving' of death be made with emotionalism IE "they did this to a child ergo they deserve to die" .... many who die deserve to live can we give them that life? It is ONLY througyh mutual co-operation, respect and valueing life ALL life not just that life we deem of value that this world society (IE ALL societies) have a hope of healing and changing for the better.

Just one look at the world news today and the stories are bleak and depressing; people stealing and selling cactus' on the black market due to the economic mess in the US, similar stories about valium and the like in the UK, house repossetions going through the roof ... people on the streets, loosing employment, loosing welfare ..... and on both sides of the pond governments are spending more and more on policing, prisons, criminalising the poor and dispossesed.

So far this 'eye for an eye' culture has not benefited anyone, aside from the super rich; if something is not of benefit to a society then it needs changing, the attitudes behind the DP are not helping or healing anythng they hurt it, they are not good for our kids they hurt them and their futures.

End of the day we have to ask ourselves do we wish to hand our children a future with hope or a future of blood, anger, revenge and death.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 7:06AM #30
becca97
Posts: 2,562
[QUOTE=dingaling;663904]Any convicted felon exsecuted by the state of Texas has ever gone on to kill again.[/QUOTE]

Pierrepoint, the last hangman in the UK has this to say about what he did for his life ....


[COLOR="Navy"]"It is I who have faced them last, young lads and girls, working men and grandmothers.

I have been amazed to see the courage with which they walk into the unknown.

It did not deter them then and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder."
Albert Pierrepoint, Chief Executioner 1934 - 1954[/COLOR]

I reckon we need ot be a little less quick to use death as a solution to our problems, nor should decisions on those so called 'deserving' of death be made with emotionalism IE "they did this to a child ergo they deserve to die" .... many who die deserve to live can we give them that life? It is ONLY througyh mutual co-operation, respect and valueing life ALL life not just that life we deem of value that this world society (IE ALL societies) have a hope of healing and changing for the better.

Just one look at the world news today and the stories are bleak and depressing; people stealing and selling cactus' on the black market due to the economic mess in the US, similar stories about valium and the like in the UK, house repossetions going through the roof ... people on the streets, loosing employment, loosing welfare ..... and on both sides of the pond governments are spending more and more on policing, prisons, criminalising the poor and dispossesed.

So far this 'eye for an eye' culture has not benefited anyone, aside from the super rich; if something is not of benefit to a society then it needs changing, the attitudes behind the DP are not helping or healing anythng they hurt it, they are not good for our kids they hurt them and their futures.

End of the day we have to ask ourselves do we wish to hand our children a future with hope or a future of blood, anger, revenge and death.
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