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Switch to Forum Live View Surprised by people's ignorance
7 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2008 - 8:32AM #101
Marcyy
Posts: 723
MTM in post # 83 has stated what I believe I well. Not from religious beliefs, but from a moral code and because I am a pacifist and all life is sacred.

If a man and a woman choose to have unprotected sex and pregnany is the result, it is the woman who must bear the consequence. The man has his fun and walks away free of any responsibilities Even if the woman does not use any birth control device, the man certainly can.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2008 - 11:31PM #102
Beruriah33
Posts: 638
Although I personally would not have an abortion except if my life or health were quite threatened, I think abortion must remain legal and access to safe abortions made simple. First of all, there are many who do not truly think in terms of the constitution. They want to impose their personal beliefs on others, which is unconstitutional. In the case of men, the underlying motive is typically a desire to subjugate women. That is one of the hallmarks of fundamentalism. It cannot be allowed.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2008 - 11:42PM #103
Joyville2
Posts: 158
Jeffrey Dahlmer was mentally ill and of no less worth because of his imperfections.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2008 - 12:29AM #104
Marysara722
Posts: 2,550

cultresearcher wrote:

How do you post Icons in your thread??? I just hit the icon and nothing happens. How do I get the icons to appear in my threads???????




cultresearcher, when you have the text reply box opened, to the right of the box you should see
all the smileys. Just click on the smiley of your choice, and it will automatically pop into your
text.

If that is not working then look above to the area where you see your name on the left-hand side,
and to the right of your name, you'll see a "My Settings" tab, click on that and it takes you to the page
where you can change your personal settings. To the left you'll see "Control Panel" and under
the area the "Edit Options" which is the page for a bunch of changes.
Scroll down to the bottom, and there is the "Miscellaneous Options" section where there is a drop-down tab.
Click on the last one that says, "Enchanced Interface - Full Editing" then be sure to click "Save Changes" and then POOF, you should be able to post the smiley faces.

While you're on that page, check out the other preferences that you can change.

MSara
Beliefnet Community Host

********************

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2008 - 1:17AM #105
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=cultresearcher;192825]Separation of church and state only means that the state can't get any money from the church and that you can have serve God in any Christian doctrine that you want.[/QUOTE]

The first ammendment of the Constitution of the United States of America:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Note that nothing is said about payment or about Christianity.   it says No establishment of any religion.If you disagree with that, you disagree with the founding fathers of this country and you disagree with the document that is the law of the land.  You might as well just admit that you're unAmerican and wish that we lived under a fascist theocracy.

[QUOTE]  Not like hank the 8th who wanted everyone to be cathloic.  Hank gave people a choice convert or you die.  Once a person was killed, the person's estate went to the king.[/QUOTE]

You're confusing Henry the 8th, who broke the Catholic church in England, with the Inquisition, which was only associated with the Catholic church in the sense that the Catholic church was the only xian doctrine in Europe at the time.

[QUOTE]In the home setting Authority Has NOTHING TO DO WITH RIGHTS.   IT IS ONLY ABOUT WHAT I CALL THE SEATS IN THE HOME.  LIKE FOR EXAMPLE IN THE SUPREME COURT, THE CHIEF JUSTICE HAS MORE AUTHORITY THAN ANYONE ELSE IN HIS COURT.  A feminist wants to absert her husband and that is that.[/QUOTE]

*snort*
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2008 - 6:23PM #106
cultresearcher
Posts: 849
[QUOTE=MarySara722;196467]cultresearcher, when you have the text reply box opened, to the right of the box you should see
all the smileys. Just click on the smiley of your choice, and it will automatically pop into your
text.

If that is not working then look above to the area where you see your name on the left-hand side,
and to the right of your name, you'll see a "My Settings" tab, click on that and it takes you to the page
where you can change your personal settings. To the left you'll see "Control Panel" and under
the area the "Edit Options" which is the page for a bunch of changes.
Scroll down to the bottom, and there is the "Miscellaneous Options" section where there is a drop-down tab.
Click on the last one that says, "Enchanced Interface - Full Editing" then be sure to click "Save Changes" and then POOF, you should be able to post the smiley faces.

While you're on that page, check out the other preferences that you can change.

MSara
Beliefnet Community Host

********************[/QUOTE]
When it comes to computers I am an idiot, so how do I know if I have the text reply box open?
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 11:09AM #107
SkyWalker53
Posts: 2,235
[QUOTE=mytmouse57;193313]

As far as a duck or a dog or a squid or what have you having just as much, if not more, value as a human embryo of fetus... well... welcome to the theatre of the insane.  :D[/QUOTE]


No here is a clear example of insane. An individual who thinks his subjective opinion about what is "valuable" has any validity. For example. Two different sets of parents will find their child to be more "valuable". In an objective sense, which child is more valuable? The correct answer is "neither". The two different children are:

a. of equal value
b. not measurable objectively

since they are not measurable objectively, then all value systems are flawed and should be abandoned. Life can't be measured. If you are foolish enough to believe you can measure a life with your flawed human animal subjective mind, then the only insanity that exists is within your mind.

Therefore:

a. all animals are equal
b. the value of a life is not measurable

I don't see a fetus in terms of value. I see the medical procedure, an abortion, it in terms of what is pragmatic. This evaluation of the fetus is not subjective but rather objective and clear:

The fetus does not feel pain or have any self awareness.
The fetus doesnt know it is alive.
The fetus is not formed enough to breath or function on it's own.
The carrying of a fetus is an enormous burden to the host animal.
The fetus compromises the safety and health of the host animal.
The host animal must have authority over her body and her reproduction.
The fetus represents another addition to an enormously overpopulated 6 billion humans.

So you don't have to value/ devalue any living being to make an ethical decision about D&C medical procedures. Simply understand the facts. Pragmatism involves not speculating that the "fetus may grow into a human" (because it may also miscarry or be stillborn or have a lethal genetic defect). The fact is that it is not a fully functioning life form at the present time.

Based on the above facts, there is noting wrong with the removal of a fetus in the early stages of pregnancy. This is why most abortions are done in the first trimester. Doctors and lawmakers have been able to look at this pragmatically whereas a religious or self deluded person would never be able to. Which is why we have separation of church and state for good reason. I believe that where beliefs and religion enter the picture, insanity creeps in.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2008 - 2:21AM #108
bluehorserunning
Posts: 1,754
[QUOTE=SkyWalker53;210372]The two different children are:

a. of equal value
b. not measurable objectively

since they are not measurable objectively, then all value systems are flawed...[/QUOTE]

Here's where you and I diverge, SW.  The fact that one value system is flawed does not necessarily reflect on any (certianly not all) other value system.

[QUOTE]Life can't be measured.[/QUOTE]

Sure it can, and you also do it:  you measure the attributes of children and fetuses, and you value a born child more than a fetus.  The fact that your measurement (and mine) are based on human values does not make that measurement totally worthless.

[QUOTE]The fetus does not feel pain or have any self awareness.
The fetus doesnt know it is alive.
The fetus is not formed enough to breath or function on it's own.
The carrying of a fetus is an enormous burden to the host animal.
The fetus compromises the safety and health of the host animal.
The fetus represents another addition to an enormously overpopulated 6 billion humans.[/QUOTE]

These are all measurements that you have made on the fetus:  measuring sentience, measuring independence, measuring costs and benefits.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2008 - 11:22AM #109
SkyWalker53
Posts: 2,235
[QUOTE=bluehorserunning;214632]Here's where you and I diverge, SW.  The fact that one value system is flawed does not necessarily reflect on any (certianly not all) other value system..[/QUOTE]

BH, here is why value systems are flawed; they are subjective, they are your opinion of another living being. Guess what? Your opinion of another living being has no basis in reality. It means nothing outside of your own head. Let's say you are trying to determine the value of Grandma. Can you do that? Well after you have produced a $dollar figure for Grandma...tell her what her $value is and see if she agrees with you. You see, it does not reflect in any way on Grandma. Now try and come up with a $dollar figure for a gopher tortoise. Let's say you come up with $500. Well due to our subjective self centered minds, you were unable to understand that the gopher tortoise is a keystone species. In terms of the planet Earth, very important to certain habitats. There is no way, a self centered human mind could ever ascertain the value of an individual. That's because there is no differential value.

Value systems are a self delusional way of passing judgement on that which can never be understood in terms of value, individual souls/consciousness encapsulated in physical bodies. Individuals simply are and no one has the ability to determine the value of an individual without deluding themselves.

Can you state a value system that is not flawed?

[QUOTE=bluehorserunning;214632]Sure it can, and you also do it:  you measure the attributes of children and fetuses, and you value a born child more than a fetus.  The fact that your measurement (and mine) are based on human values does not make that measurement totally worthless..[/QUOTE]

No I don't. I consider all forms of life as equal. You can still value the fetus as equally deserving of respect and need an abortion. That the fetus has equal value doesn't negate a need for an abortion due to the problems that exist in this society. So, since we know all value systems are flawed, we can throw them out and focus on what is pragmatic. For instance, we have a woman who simply can't go through the 9 month ordeal of having her health compromised and her life on hold. We can determine OBJECTIVELY, with all due respect to the fetal life form, that there will be no pain or suffering to it. No "loss of it's own life" because it has no awareness and has never been able to experience it's own life. Pragmatically, we know that this form of life, an animal fetus, won't suffer any loss or pain because it is not functional or formed. It doesn't make it "less than", it just makes it different. If you use the facts about what it is and what it can experience, then you can deduce how much harm is being done based on what the individual will experience. We know that all animals used for food or in medical experiments, however, will suffer terribly in cages and confinement for their entire short lives, experience pain and terror in a slaughterhouse or when being mutilated for an experiment, and also the loss of their own lives. We know that unlike a fetus, these thinking, feeling animals, represent no imposition or threat to another living being, unlike a fetus does to the host animal.

Every animal and individual is different, but equally deserving of respect. With all due respect, we can determine that the fetus is not a form of life that will suffer or feel pain in any way. It has no functioning animal nervous system because it is not formed. The only harm is an interruption in it's growth. If that interruption is done early enough, it can be objectively understood that there is no harm in terms of what the fetus is able experience. By respecting it as a life form from it's unique point of view, we know that it can't experience any of the abortion procedure.



[QUOTE=bluehorserunning;214632]These are all measurements that you have made on the fetus:  measuring sentience, measuring independence, measuring costs and benefits.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't call them "measurements". I would call them facts. Value systems are subjective and flawed. Facts are objective and flawless.
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