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Switch to Forum Live View Do we have the right to choose?
7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 2:38AM #1
livelifetothefullest
Posts: 265
Yes, I know, we have the RIGHT to choose whether or not to have an abortion.  Actually, I have been going over Roe v. Wade and the opinions of the court quite extensively the past couple of weeks.  The question I am posing is whether or not the Constitution grants us the right to have an abortion.  Please, leave moral arguments and religious arguments out of this and just focus on the Constitution and what it says/implies.  (say/implies may be the answer...)

Thank you.
LLttF
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 5:31AM #2
lexa_blue
Posts: 327
(disclaimer: I last read Roe all the way through over seven years ago, so please forgive me if my memory is a bit fuzzy)

My understanding of Roe is that there is more discussion of a right to privacy than a right to choice.  The right to privacy is certainly not stated in the Constitution, but it is implied pretty strongly in several places (Fourth Amendment springs to mind). 

The right to choice is not at all the same as the right to privacy, altough the two are definitely far from mutually exclusive, and it could be argued that the stated right to one automatically implies the right to the other.  The right to choice is also explicit in the Constitution, but I would argue that, like privacy, it is very strongly impled (First Amendment, off the top of my head).

I'm so glad that you posted this topic--I rarely expect to see such an intellectual topic when it comes to issued like abortion.  Let's hope that this thread doesn't get lost in all the shouting.

Blessings,
Lexa
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 2:11PM #3
livelifetothefullest
Posts: 265
When reading over Roe v. Wade, I expected to find a lot more reason for choice than simply the protection of the right of privacy, because like you, I believe there is a crucial difference between privacy and choice.  I think it is pretty safe to assume that our forefathers intended to protect privacy, for the 1st, 4th, 5th and 9th amendments all hint at it quite keenly.  However, choice, especially when regarding the ending of a life (though whether the fetus is alive is certainly the hot point in this issue), it seems as though the choice doesn't exactly deserve privacy. 

Also, the opponents of abortion use the 14th amendment to argue that a fetus should not be deprived of its right to "life". 

So, in Roe v. Wade, I think it really comes down to this question:

Does the fetus have its rights as a US citizen before it is born?  And if yes, when does it acquire those rights?

Also, the question has been posed: "Who has the more important right, the mother or the fetus?"

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 6:11PM #4
udcstb
Posts: 2,783
Thanks for the thoughtful questions.  However, you are making a few assumptions that indeed affect the logical answers you are looking for.

[QUOTE]... a fetus should not be deprived of its right to "life".  [/QUOTE]

Certainly a fetus consists of living cells but is it a "life" in the sense as most know it to be.  If it is not a "life" a fetus cannot be deprived of "its life".  You should be aware there is no scientific, social or religious consensus on that important question. 

IMO, living cells do not a human soul make.  A soul is a spirit, disconnected from biological cells.  A soul is a religious issue, not a legal issue.  When living cells develop or acquire a soul is indeterminable.  To say otherwise is speculation and one's opinion is as valid as another's.

Does the fetus have its rights as a US citizen before it is born?[/QUOTE]

No, a fetus is not a legal person.  You cannot issue a SSN to a fetus.  A parent or guardian cannot enter into a legal contract on behalf of a fetus.  Birth is a prerequisite for legal personhood.  However, this is the vision of those who are determined to impose their brand of religious morality and rules on all of us.

"Who has the more important right, the mother or the fetus?"[/QUOTE]

Given the legalities to the above, this is a moot question. 



As you explore these questions further, you should realize there is no moral absolute answer.  The moral question is a religious issue and religions are notoriously unable to reach consensus.  And since we have religious freedom in this country, it would be a unprecedented restriction of our constitutional freedoms to favor one religious dogma over another.

Decisions on reproduction include many issues beside just biology.  Only the person, family and profession counsel can reach the right moral decision.  A one size fits all government decision only invite social disasters. 

And the Supreme Court concurs as historical precedence for the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment constitutionally guarantees a right of privacy encompassing decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment.  Polls show most Americans support this interpretation of our Constitution.

"As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand."
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 7:15PM #5
Marysara722
Posts: 2,550

livelifetothefullest wrote:

Yes, I know, we have the RIGHT to choose whether or not to have an abortion.



Hi there, and Welcome to Bnet and the ADB. :)

Actually it’s not so much as having "the RIGHT to choose whether or not to have an abortion"
but more to the point of whether or not one has desires to bring one’s own progeny into one’s
life, one’s world, this world.

Actually, I have been going over Roe v. Wade and the opinions of the court quite extensively the past couple of weeks.



Glad to see that some have taken the time to read the case along with related case precedence.

The question I am posing is whether or not the Constitution grants us the right to have an abortion.



And I’ll answer your question by posing a question back to you. Make that more than a few questions.
Does the Constitution grant us the right to be married?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not be married?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to be married to anyone of our choosing? (Applying to adults
only here of course.)
Does the Constitution grant us the right to only marry who others say should marry who?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grants us the right to have one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not have one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to prevent having one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to practice birth prevention? (Meaning birth control.)
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not practice birth prevention? (Meaning birth control.)
Does the Constitution grant only married people (read heterosexual couples) the right to practice
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only married people (read heterosexual couples) the right not to utilize
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only single people (males or females) the right to practice
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only single people (males or females) the right to not practice
birth control?
Does the Constitution deny the above rights for either married or single people?
I could go one, but I’ll keep it short by asking 2 more questions.
Does the Constitution grant us the right to many unwritten things?
Does the Constitution deny us the right to do many unwritten things?

Please, leave moral arguments and religious arguments out of this and just focus on the Constitution and what it says/implies. (say/implies may be the answer...)



Never. Not from me. :)

*********************

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 6:11PM #6
udcstb
Posts: 2,783
Thanks for the thoughtful questions.  However, you are making a few assumptions that indeed affect the logical answers you are looking for.

[QUOTE]... a fetus should not be deprived of its right to "life".  [/QUOTE]

Certainly a fetus consists of living cells but is it a "life" in the sense as most know it to be.  If it is not a "life" a fetus cannot be deprived of "its life".  You should be aware there is no scientific, social or religious consensus on that important question. 

IMO, living cells do not a human soul make.  A soul is a spirit, disconnected from biological cells.  A soul is a religious issue, not a legal issue.  When living cells develop or acquire a soul is indeterminable.  To say otherwise is speculation and one's opinion is as valid as another's.

Does the fetus have its rights as a US citizen before it is born?[/QUOTE]

No, a fetus is not a legal person.  You cannot issue a SSN to a fetus.  A parent or guardian cannot enter into a legal contract on behalf of a fetus.  Birth is a prerequisite for legal personhood.  However, this is the vision of those who are determined to impose their brand of religious morality and rules on all of us.

"Who has the more important right, the mother or the fetus?"[/QUOTE]

Given the legalities to the above, this is a moot question. 



As you explore these questions further, you should realize there is no moral absolute answer.  The moral question is a religious issue and religions are notoriously unable to reach consensus.  And since we have religious freedom in this country, it would be a unprecedented restriction of our constitutional freedoms to favor one religious dogma over another.

Decisions on reproduction include many issues beside just biology.  Only the person, family and profession counsel can reach the right moral decision.  A one size fits all government decision only invite social disasters. 

And the Supreme Court concurs as historical precedence for the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment constitutionally guarantees a right of privacy encompassing decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment.  Polls show most Americans support this interpretation of our Constitution.

"As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand."
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 7:15PM #7
Marysara722
Posts: 2,550

livelifetothefullest wrote:

Yes, I know, we have the RIGHT to choose whether or not to have an abortion.



Hi there, and Welcome to Bnet and the ADB. :)

Actually it’s not so much as having "the RIGHT to choose whether or not to have an abortion"
but more to the point of whether or not one has desires to bring one’s own progeny into one’s
life, one’s world, this world.

Actually, I have been going over Roe v. Wade and the opinions of the court quite extensively the past couple of weeks.



Glad to see that some have taken the time to read the case along with related case precedence.

The question I am posing is whether or not the Constitution grants us the right to have an abortion.



And I’ll answer your question by posing a question back to you. Make that more than a few questions.
Does the Constitution grant us the right to be married?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not be married?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to be married to anyone of our choosing? (Applying to adults
only here of course.)
Does the Constitution grant us the right to only marry who others say should marry who?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grants us the right to have one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not have one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to prevent having one’s own progeny?
Does the Constitution deny us the above rights?
Does the Constitution grant us the right to practice birth prevention? (Meaning birth control.)
Does the Constitution grant us the right to not practice birth prevention? (Meaning birth control.)
Does the Constitution grant only married people (read heterosexual couples) the right to practice
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only married people (read heterosexual couples) the right not to utilize
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only single people (males or females) the right to practice
birth control measures?
Does the Constitution grant only single people (males or females) the right to not practice
birth control?
Does the Constitution deny the above rights for either married or single people?
I could go one, but I’ll keep it short by asking 2 more questions.
Does the Constitution grant us the right to many unwritten things?
Does the Constitution deny us the right to do many unwritten things?

Please, leave moral arguments and religious arguments out of this and just focus on the Constitution and what it says/implies. (say/implies may be the answer...)



Never. Not from me. :)

*********************

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Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2007 - 10:46PM #8
livelifetothefullest
Posts: 265
Both replies were awesome.  I firmly believe that we as a nation have the choice as to whether or not we want an abortion.  I would not make that decision myself, but I believe it is a right.  And as a famous Justice once said, "Sometimes the benefit is worth the risk."

Great points though, I really respect both your viewpoints, actually, I agree with them.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 10, 2007 - 10:27PM #9
thaxlord
Posts: 7
How can you bring up a topic such as this one and not bring God into that which he is the only one to allow "life"
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2007 - 12:33AM #10
livelifetothefullest
Posts: 265
[QUOTE=thaxlord;130581]How can you bring up a topic such as this one and not bring God into that which he is the only one to allow "life"[/QUOTE]

Because we live in a nation with the law following our Constitution, so it is a very important aspect to interpret the Constitution for guidance.  Especially when a moral consensus cannot be reached.
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