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Switch to Forum Live View The Death Penalty is Right
7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 5:36PM #31
pIrish
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=ibrian;49365]Once that person has taken a life of another He, or she , has forfieted their right to life. Has nothing to do with hate, but rather the right of society to protect itself from someone capable of killing, if you feel that this person should have a second chance let him, or her live with you and your family, and take full responsility for their actions. if your going to say i do it.[/QUOTE]

Nobody is advocating letting them free. Honestly, I don't get where people seem to think that there are only two options to this thing. :rolleyes: There are far more options than simply execution or freedom. Everyone who is against the death penalty still think the convicted should be punished. Most of them think that a more appropriate punishment is life in prison without the possibility of parole. This would eliminate the death penalty (which would eliminate every single mistake where an innocent person was executed) and it would keep the public safe from them.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 5:50PM #32
pIrish
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=PomegranateStaindGrn;48824]You are comparing murderers[/QUOTE]

No I'm not. Your statement that I responded to mentioned nothing of a murderer. It actually said quite the opposite. It implied that the victim was still quite alive and even capable of testifying in court!

[QUOTE]to women who were killed because they floated in water (one of the tests for witches), taught women how to prevent unwanted pregnancy, helped women cut their pain while giving birth, and believed outside of what was THE "acceptable" religion during those times.  Not the same.[/QUOTE]

Those were the deciding factors, yes, but if it hadn't been for someone "positively identifying" someone by shouting "WITCH!" it would never have gotten to the point where people were burned alive because they looked at their neighbor funny and the neighbor decided the person was cursing them. It happened over and over and over again. This why "innocent until proven guilty" is the standard that must be upheld at all times, even if it puts the victim in an uncomfortable and distressing position.

[QUOTE]And I said nothing about the death penalty in that case - I said life in prison without the possibility of parole.  You might want to re-read what I've said about the DP - I support it but only if there is irrefutable proof (like video).[/QUOTE]

Video is unreliable more often than not. Most video that captures things like murder are usually very pixelated and blurry. Only in the rare case that the camera can film at a higher level could it even remotely be considered acceptable, but the problem is, those cameras are rarely used in the security industry.

[QUOTE]That might be the minority of cases which is fine.  I don't support it as an act of revenge - though some might.  My goal is not for more murder - it's for less.[/QUOTE]

I know that. I was commenting on something you said, not your moral stance. Please realize the difference. I am not attacking you (you've clearly claimed you don't support the death penalty), but I am attacking the "guilty until proven innocent" statement you mentioned. I haven't said anything about you, personally. Just because I quoted something you said and responded to it doesn't mean I'm going after you. It means I'm going after the comment. If it had been said by anybody else (myself included), I would sure hope someone would pipe up about it.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 5:57PM #33
PomegranateStaindGrn
Posts: 601
I'm not anti-DP, but I am pro irrefutable proof if that is an option in the case.  If it's pixelated, that is hardly irrefutable. 
I see violent criminals as being no different than murderers - and rapists certainly qualify.  They are just as ego-maniacal and narcissistic as murderers. 
I understand why you are picking out my comments - however, I am hardly a hardline case as far as DP supporters go - in fact I require a lot more evidence than many.  I am indeed a liberal but I am not a pacifist. 
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 6:27PM #34
pIrish
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=PomegranateStaindGrn;49459]I'm not anti-DP, but I am pro irrefutable proof if that is an option in the case.  If it's pixelated, that is hardly irrefutable.[/QUOTE]

My fiance is the same way. Not necessarily anti-DP, but requires a lot more than evidence than most criminals get convicted on. I don't like the death penalty at all, even with all the evidence in the world, because someone has to kill the killer and I think that could really mess someone up.

[QUOTE]I see violent criminals as being no different than murderers - and rapists certainly qualify.  They are just as ego-maniacal and narcissistic as murderers.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you completely on this point.

[QUOTE]I understand why you are picking out my comments - however, I am hardly a hardline case as far as DP supporters go - in fact I require a lot more evidence than many.[/QUOTE]

I know you that, which is actually why I thought those particular comments seemed rather out of place.

[QUOTE]I am indeed a liberal but I am not a pacifist.[/QUOTE]

I suppose I'm both. I don't like the thought of anybody being killed, even if it was deserved. I had to leave the room when the news stations were showing the video of Hussein being hung.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 6:32PM #35
PomegranateStaindGrn
Posts: 601

pIrish wrote:


I suppose I'm both. I don't like the thought of anybody being killed, even if it was deserved. I had to leave the room when the news stations were showing the video of Hussein being hung.



I didn't watch it either, but I didn't watch it because it was propaganda and I certainly didn't want to be witness to people celebrating a death as I'm sure happened. 

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 10:37AM #36
pIrish
Posts: 181
[QUOTE=PomegranateStaindGrn;49552]I didn't watch it either, but I didn't watch it because it was propaganda and I certainly didn't want to be witness to people celebrating a death as I'm sure happened.  [/QUOTE]

Yes, people celebrated. Though I wasn't in the room, I could still hear it and there was much cheering after the deed was done. Even though he was a terrible person, I still don't see how people could be happy when witnessing any sort of death. The same thing happened with lynchings too. Photos were taken of people smiling around the corpses, proud of what they had done. I just don't get it. :(
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 1:14PM #37
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=pIrish;50970]Yes, people celebrated. Though I wasn't in the room, I could still hear it and there was much cheering after the deed was done. Even though he was a terrible person, I still don't see how people could be happy when witnessing any sort of death.  :([/QUOTE]

I agree that the way his execution was handled was way past wrong, however, I do believe he deserved to be executed. As for people being happy about it? If I had been forced to live under his rule, I may have been happy to see him dead too.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 1:14PM #38
bubbysmommy
Posts: 1,119
[QUOTE=pIrish;50970]Yes, people celebrated. Though I wasn't in the room, I could still hear it and there was much cheering after the deed was done. Even though he was a terrible person, I still don't see how people could be happy when witnessing any sort of death.  :([/QUOTE]

I agree that the way his execution was handled was way past wrong, however, I do believe he deserved to be executed. As for people being happy about it? If I had been forced to live under his rule, I may have been happy to see him dead too.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 12:09AM #39
julrich
Posts: 60
"He never expressed remorse for his actions. There was never an apology. He should have been executed."

you can kill him and there'll never be remorse.  There'll also be no way for the victim's family to gain either that satisfaction or the possibility of release from the burden of rage through forgiveness.  some may never need that opportunity, but many are made whole by it.  execution can't repair the loss or the damage.

shalom
big julie
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2007 - 8:33AM #40
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658
[QUOTE=julrich;53101]"He never expressed remorse for his actions. There was never an apology. He should have been executed."

you can kill him and there'll never be remorse.  There'll also be no way for the victim's family to gain either that satisfaction or the possibility of release from the burden of rage through forgiveness.  some may never need that opportunity, but many are made whole by it.  execution can't repair the loss or the damage.

shalom
big julie[/QUOTE]

But dead he will not remain a focus of coherent resistance.  Had they killed Napoleon after his first overthrow, he would not have returned when the new republics growing pains in transition made everyone nostalgic for the glory days of the old emperor.  Several thousand dead later, the same war got fought a second time to remove him.  Ask the English or Scot about the price when Bonnie Prince Charlie came marching home.  No.  Some wars will never be over while the symbolic leader lives Unless you want to committ ethnocide to wipe out the people entire (post Culloden Scotland), then the solution is to kill the symbolic leader.

Beleive it or not, we do learn from lessons like this.  They are expensive in terms of lives, and really, as one who was a soldier, one of the lives that gets spent on these lessons, I'm really happy we are not going to do that again.

The waring factions over there are a huge problem, but with central leadership to act as a focal point, a unifying factor against foreign oppression, they would be spending their venom on western forces, rather than mostly on each other.
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