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8 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2010 - 5:58PM #31
Passionatereason
Posts: 142

Feb 18, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Comradespirit wrote:


There are thousands of questions one can discuss on "faith tradions" etc. that are all good and valuable questions worthy of giving attention to. However I started this particular thread to discuss just one as the central theme and that is the nature of what we call death.


Please don't hijack the thread with other topics.


Thank you.



I am sorry if you feel that I have "hijacked" the thread. Many of the issues that have been raised concern "what we call death", what happens after we die, and is there a course of action that can be taken to insure we "arrive" in a better place. These are all interrelated, would you not agree?


I have just gone back to read your introductory posts to this thread. It would appear to me that you have indeed touched on the very subjects I have discussed.


Jan 30, 2010 -- 1:04AM, Comradespirit wrote:

We as eternal spiritual beings live under the constant fear of death, of losing our life. This is incredibly sad because we are in fact life and we are immortal by constituion.


Pyschologists generally tell us that to overcome an irrational fear that is harming our lives one has to learn  to face that fear straight on.


No one can be in a state of joy while experiencing such a fear.


Time to look death straight in it's vacuumus face and have a hearty life at the very thought of it being a reality.


There is no boogeyman.


This is exactly what I have said, and I have told you that I have no fear of death. I have explained specifically why I do not have this fear. I have also hinted at what I have discovered in order that others may loose this fear. 


Jan 30, 2010 -- 6:12AM, Comradespirit wrote:

To become free from the misconception of death it is necessary to come to the proper conception of ouselves. Afterall it is obvious that the physical body does indeed disolve away in time. So if we are the material body then death is a fact.


The question then is are we the material body or not?


I have clearly stated that we are both the physical body & the conceptual body. I have also clearly stated that both physical & conceptual neither came from nothingness, nor will return to nothingness.


Again, I have hinted at what it takes to become free from the misconceptions that one holds that causes the fear you have spoken of.


I have not gone into deep detail, primarily because this discussion does not warrant it.


Feb 11, 2010 -- 2:00PM, Juli wrote:

I believe that death is only for the physical body itself.  Our spirit and soul lives on eternally after our physical body dies and this is what gives me hope that someday I will be reunited with my mother once again.


Juli has made a statement that contradicts your belief in 'reincarnation'. You have gone and twisted this for your own purpose, and explained how Juli may possibly be with her mother once again - in a reincarnated state.


Juli has not posted in this thread since.


I am willing to continue the conversation though.


As I have stated previously, if you are seeking confirmation of your exact beliefs in the exact terminology you desire, you should have started this thread in an 'Eastern Religion' forum.


But you have started this thread in a 'Death & Grief' > 'Life After Death' > forum and stated that 'Death is a myth'. I have engaged you, and williejhonlo, in this discussion of 'death is a myth'.
Because I am neither a practitioner of Eastern nor Western "faith traditions", I have explained to you how your belief is similar to my understanding, and have pointed out the differences.


I have even taken a look at your Bhagavad Gita and found that it reflects my understanding on the subject rather well.


I am truly sorry if you are uncomfortable with the way the thread is going. But this is your discomfort, not mine.


What exactly were you expecting, when you stated "death is a myth"?


I have only asked 2 questions in this post, would you answer them? (okay, this is now the 3rd question, but just as the 1st, it can be answered with a simple yes or no)

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2010 - 8:07PM #32
Comradespirit
Posts: 62

 


And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.  Bhagavad-gita 8.5


There is great empahasis given by sages past and present upon the importance of the state of consciousness we possess at the very moment when we make our final exit from the body. The yogis taught that at he moment of death the most prominent thing thing in our life just lived rises up to become prominent in our minds at the moment of death. This is why some people try to spend as much time praying, chanting one of God's innumerable names, readin and discussion scripture and devotional topics as well as enaging in practical day to day service to  God in various ways. They know that all this activity will influence their mind at the time of death to remember the Lord and doing so they may go to him ending the cycle of repeated birth and death in this material world.


 


But of course remembering God is never just mechanical, it requires God's grace. I know of no better example of this than that of one of the theives that were crucified next to Christ. During the last moments of his life one theif came to have faith in Christ and His message and made it known to Jesus. Jesus told him that on this day he would see him in paradise.


Nevertheless it is best to show the Lord we have great interest in receiving His mercy and try to remember Him at all times.


In this way the moment of passing from the body can become a great pivot point and change the whole circumstance of our life from living under the shadow of birth and death to one of enjoying the full nectar of immortality.

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2010 - 1:16PM #33
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Feb 18, 2010 -- 3:03PM, Passionatereason wrote:


Feb 18, 2010 -- 12:19PM, williejhonlo wrote:

Question, how did the people who made the dictionary come to their conclusion of what truth is?


They've come to this conclusion in order for us to be able to communicate effectively.

Feb 18, 2010 -- 12:19PM, williejhonlo wrote:

How we see things is relative to the seers, as it is said, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" people have differing minds that's why they come to different conclusions about things.


Which, once again, leads me to ask the same question as it pertains to the various "faith tradition" texts.
Why do you seem so certain that the Bhagavad Gita has come to the correct conclusions itself?


From my brief readings, I will agree that it has come to many correct conclusions - but where it speaks of the "here-after-this life" it is complete and utter speculation as far as I am concerned. Speculation that is uneeded for one to live a life with "peace of mind". I have come to this same conclusion as to the other "faith traditions" also.


This does not mean that I do not respect these "faith traditions" - I do respect them. My concern is with how they are being understood in this day & time.


My concern is also with those that would say "Truth is relative". For "Truth" is indeed NOT relative - Only how "Truth" is told.


Those that believe truth is relative are invariably atheists. Atheists are not completely honest because they choose to deny that which is unprovable. I do not deny the unprovable, I am merely unconcerned with the unprovable, but understand why some must have an answer to the unprovable - religion gives these answers.


Just as I attend funerals/memorials as a compassionate response for the living, It is compassion that I have for those who need these religious answer to the unprovable.


 



Peace of mind is nice but while living in the material world one is confronted with a host of miseries such as natural calamities and problems pertaining to the body. Life can throw you a curve sometimes. The religious text as you call them teaches that consciousness is not of this material nature but is conditioned by it. This makes consciousness foreign to nature, something imported, therefore true happiness comes from connecting with source ( God ). The Buddhist of Tibet had peace of mind but look how they were harassed by the chinese government and army. You can live in peace and still be a victim of a crime. Peace in this world is not lasting but temporary. True peace comes when you transcend it altogether. You say truth is not relative and this is true as long as it relates to consciousness since consciousness is the one absolute requirement to know truth, but on the mental plain it is relative since people have different outlooks on life. You may get peace of mind by meditation on some void and that may make you happy, but someone else may think the acquisitions of money and power are what brings them happiness and peace of mind.

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2010 - 2:04PM #34
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Feb 18, 2010 -- 2:37PM, Passionatereason wrote:


Feb 17, 2010 -- 2:09PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Read the gita chapter fourteen and if you think i misinterpret correct me. As far as "truth" how do you define it?


I must apoligize, for I mispoke originally. I have a copy of the Rig Veda, not the Bhagavad Gita. I have located an online copy though and have begun reading chapter 14 as you have suggested. Something struck me as very insightful early on though...


14.6: "O sinless one, the mode of goodness, being purer than the others, is illuminating, and it frees one from all sinful reactions. Those situated in that mode become conditioned by a sense of happiness and knowledge."


This appears to be pretty much what I have discovered without the aid of this text. The only difference being that I have labeled 'happiness' as "peace of mind" and "knowledge" as "understanding".


I have discovered this truth without the Bhagavad Gita, and without any concern about my 'afterlife'.


and in 14.2: "By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution."


Which again, says to me that when one is fixed in this understanding, one need have no concern about death & what may happen afterwards. Just as I have already stated. Again, I've discovered this without the aid fo your Bhagavad Gita. This Bhagavad Gita only serves to confirm what I already understand.


it goes on to describe the different modes: goodness, passion, and ignorance. I can agree with much of what is written about these.


And in 14.20, this is written: "When the embodied being is able to transcend these three modes associated with the material body, he can become free from birth, death, old age and their distresses and can enjoy nectar even in this life."


This my friend would be Nirvana, the "Truth" that 'sets one free', and what I simply call as "peace of mind". Please note, that it is stated this condition can be attained in this life. Which is exactly what others have claimed, and what I claim.


If one attains this condition, then one becomes free from the distresses of birth, death, old age, etc.


Again, this is what I am saying - without the aid of your Bhagavad Gita.  This is what is said in a different manner by others, and they to did not use the Bhagavad Gita as their guide.


As I have already stated, "faith traditions" set up goals for believers to attain. Just as in Buddhist & Christian belief, the Bhagavad Gita tells one how to reach this goal before death, and also tells what will happen after death, if you don't reach this goal. High planets/this planet/animal kingdom - which is the classic definition of reincarnation, which is quite different from Heaven/Hell as believed by Christians/Moslems. Yet, we have already agreed on how these 2 definitions of the after-this-life are similar.


I am unconcerned with what happens after death, because I understand what is required to attain this goal while living.


To put this simply, I say that "Truth" is that which conforms to reality; That there are 2 realities: the conceptual & the physical, and a being is responsible for these 2 realities -


To act in harmony with "Truth" you must accept this fact: You, and You alone, are responsible for all that you do (physical reality), and all that you perceive (conceptual reality).


When you pass these responsibilities to another entity, you cannot live in harmony with "Truth". When you are not living in harmony with "Truth", you will fear this "Truth".


In this, I believe that I am in substantial agreement with all "faith traditions" - but I need no ancient texts to tell me this.


 



Your comment about verse 14.2 about having no concern of death when one achieves a nature like God is correct when one becomes Brahman realized, but what about those who don't ? Also those conditioned by the mode of goodness may bring them happiness but these modes are still material and the results they give are material and therefore temporary. On your comment on verse 14.20 it refers to verse 14.26 which says " one who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances at once transcends the modes of nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Bhakti ( devotional service is emphasized not nirvana ) Concerning your question what happens after death what is written by most of the major religions is that the soul travels to different spheres of material existence according to its karma which is fueled by its desire. The point is that it is the soul that goes through this process and not the body therefore the soul never dies it just takes on new bodies. Bodies cannot die, souls cannot die, in truth nothing dies, when the temporary body gets worn out and is no longer habitable you the soul must vacate and accept another body which is prepared for you by nature.

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2010 - 6:17PM #35
Passionatereason
Posts: 142

I'd really like to carry on the conversation with you williejohnlo, but according to Comradespirit, I've hijacked the thread.


In defference to his concerns, and to allow him to preach unhindered, I am not posting in this thread any longer.


I see now that you have posted in a thread I started before following this one. We can continue our conversation there. I would ask that you continue posting here though...


I request this so that Comradespirit won't have to talk to himself.

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2010 - 1:43PM #36
Comradespirit
Posts: 62

krishnaisgreat.com/wordpress/wp-content/...


 


 


(For some reason the image won't come up but at least the link does)


 


This picture depicts the great self-realizaed saint Sukadeva Gosvami on the instructors chair and the great king Maharaja Pariksit before him in the humble inquiring position. Seated around them are the most learned sages of India at the time who can to hear the conversation between these two great souls.


Maharaja Pariksit had been cursed to die within seven days so he immediately sought out the self realized Sukadeva Gosvami  to hear from him about the nature of God, the material universe, his relationship with them and specifically his duty at the time of the death event which was pressing upon him. This is the position of all of us so in this sense Pariksit is also questioning on our behalf.


Of course we can't assume to ever be in such a position as Maharaja Pariksit who was a God conscious king his whole life. He is performing the  sacrifice of fasting from food and sleep for his last seven days and becoming absolutely withdrawn from all wordlty concerns and fixing his consciousness 100% on the Personality of Godhead.


For many of us death will come in some unexpected way and time catching us unaware. This why the sages recommend that we spend our entire lives cultivating both self and God realization so that at the death event we will be prepared.


No different then studying for a final exam in school. The death event is the final exam of a human life and we should want to pass this exam and graduate to the next pregressive level of consciousness if not complete God consciousness.


How we live will determine our consciousness at death and our consciousness at death will determine the quality of our next life.


I have no doubt that on this forum everyone will agree we should make all efforts to move towards the Land of Light and not just wait until the death experience to begin this move.


Futher in this present culture where madness for material gain is being forcfully impressed upon us from all sides we need to encourage each other and helpeach other keep focus on the higher goal.


May God please help us.


Hare Krishna

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2010 - 2:33PM #37
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

The image came up for me. Good post comrade, the reason we exist is for the pastimes of the Lord and we have to past through different bodies until we realize this.

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2010 - 3:18PM #38
Comradespirit
Posts: 62

Feb 23, 2010 -- 2:33PM, williejhonlo wrote:


The image came up for me. Good post comrade, the reason we exist is for the pastimes of the Lord and we have to past through different bodies until we realize this.


Willie prabhu,


Was the image present on the post itself or only the link? I know the link works. Bnet may have disabled the image function to preserve bandwidth or something.


Yes realizatyion seems to take a long time but we just have yo make sure we are at least moving in the right direction.


 


 

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8 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2010 - 12:43PM #39
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Feb 23, 2010 -- 3:18PM, Comradespirit wrote:



Feb 23, 2010 -- 2:33PM, williejhonlo wrote:


The image came up for me. Good post comrade, the reason we exist is for the pastimes of the Lord and we have to past through different bodies until we realize this.


Willie prabhu,


Was the image present on the post itself or only the link? I know the link works. Bnet may have disabled the image function to preserve bandwidth or something.


Yes realizatyion seems to take a long time but we just have yo make sure we are at least moving in the right direction.


 


 


prabhu, it only came through on the link.

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8 years ago  ::  Mar 11, 2010 - 10:27PM #40
Passionatereason
Posts: 142

(remember, all that I have written was true when I typed it, all that I write now is true as I am typing it)

Jan 30, 2010 -- 1:04AM, Comradespirit wrote:

There is no boogeyman.


Oh yes there is!!


He was next door just yesterday! Love did not want him to bother us, I didn't really care either way. Love has a longer history with the boogeyman, and does not trust him completely. Everytime I have met the boogeyman, we have got along fine.

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