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Switch to Forum Live View What does the Bible say about the state of the dead?
6 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2008 - 6:47PM #1
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
are the dead somehow conscious?  what happens to our dearly departed loved ones...what does that Bible have to say...
well for starters if you do not view the Bible as a reliable source then you probaly feel this post isn't for you. I can't be the judge of that...hopefully even non-Bible believers will find something here...all are welcomed.

I have compiled a short  list of Bible verses that deal with the topic of the state of the dead; of course there are many verses in the Bible that deal with the state of the dead but for the sake of time I grabbed a couple to begin with . I won't go into a debate about the interpretations of these verses that is the Holy Spirit's job to reveal.... but if after reading the verses anyone has any questions please feel free to leave a post or email me at my personal email:
karenmoore6328@yahoo.com
also you can check out the website:  www.truthaboutdeath.com

Job 7:10
Job 14:12
Job 14:21
Ecclesiastes 9
Psalms 115:17
Psalms 6:5
Isaiah 38:18
Psalms 146:4
Isaiah 8:19
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2008 - 7:32PM #2
NothingButLove
Posts: 715

theremnantgirl wrote:

are the dead somehow conscious?  what happens to our dearly departed loved ones...what does that Bible have to say...



Well here's what Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson has to say, after his death, about what the Bible has to say:

The thought inevitably came into my mind of the doctrine of eternal damnation, so beloved by orthodox religion, and of the everlasting fires of so-called hell. If this place we were now could be called hell—and no doubt it would be by theologians—then there was certainly no evidence of fire or heat of any kind. On the contrary, there was nothing but a cold, dank atmosphere. Spirituality means warmth in the spirit world; lack of spirituality means coldness. The whole fantastic doctrine of hell-fire—a fire which burns but never consumes—is one of the most outrageously stupid and ignorant doctrines that has ever
been invented by equally stupid and ignorant churchmen. Who actually invented it no one knows, but it is still rigorously upheld as a doctrine by the church. Even the smallest acquaintance with spirit life instantly reveals the utter impossibility of it, because it is against the very laws of spirit existence. This concerns its literal side. What of the shocking blasphemy that it involves?



It is a strange habit of mind that persists in the belief that it is always the forces of evil from the spirit world that try to make their power felt upon the earth-plane. The forces of evil are attributed with powers which, it would seem, are denied to the forces of good. Why? And why are the churches mortally afraid to “try the spirits”—as they are advised to do in the very book upon which they place so much reliance? They ignore this text, and point a warning finger to the supposed woman of Endor.



We are taught glibly to beg for God’s mercy. The church’s God is a Being of extraordinary moods. He must be continually placated. It is by no means certain that, having begged for mercy, we shall get it. He must be feared—because He can bring down His vengeance upon us at any moment; we do not know when He will strike. He is vengeful and unforgiving. He has commanded such trivialities as are embodied in church doctrines and dogmas that at once expose not a great mind, but a small one. He has made the doorway to “salvation” so narrow that few, very few souls will ever be able to pass through it. He has built up on the earth-plane a vast organization known as “the Church”, which shall be the sole depository of spiritual truth—an organization that knows practically nothing of the state of life in the world of spirit, yet dares to lay down the law to incarnate souls, and dares to say what is in the mind of the Great Father of the Universe, and dares to discredit His Name by assigning to Him attributes that He could not possibly possess. What do such silly, petty minds know of the Great and Almighty Father of Love? Mark that!—of Love. Then think again of all the horrors I have enumerated. And think once more. Contemplate this: a heaven of all that is beautiful, a heaven of more beauty than the mind of man incarnate can comprehend; a heaven, of which one tiny fragment I have tried to describe to you, where all is peace and goodwill and love among fellow mortals. All these things are built up by the inhabitants of these realms, and are upheld by the Father of Heaven in His love for all mankind.

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6 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 10:19AM #3
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
there are 2 points that i will address from the quotes that you posted...
"...A hell fire that constantly burns but never consumes..."  I do not hold that view, it is unbiblical. Malachi 4 talks about Jesus' return and it is very clear what will happen to the wicked..they will be burned up..you can't have ashes without something being burnt completely up.

you also placed the quote where Benson questions why the habit of the mind to think that it is always the forces of evil that are trying to commune with us from the spirit world....

to that NothingButLove I will say this.

I do not feel that every communication from the "spirit" world is evil, according to the Bible God is a Spirit....

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

...however, and I am so glad Benson quoted from the Bible, "test the spirits"...the verse from which he quotes from is 1John 4...that  chapter goes on to say that if that spirit confesses Jesus Christ it is of God...why would anyone want to confess Jesus because He alone holds salvation and true eternal life, and that is what life is all about being reconciled to God...through Jesus Christ.  It is the devil's job to divert us from this path...and what better way than to offer us so-called enlightenment through the spirits of our "supposed" dead loved ones....

The Bible is clear on this subject of seeking the dead instead of seeking The True Living God....

Isaiah 8:19:

   And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


With all due respect I do not hold in high regard anybody who tries to invalidate the Bible to support their own ideals, beliefs, dogma,etc.  The Bible instructs us to take it as a whole...
it is funny that he would refer to the  witch of Endor as the "supposed" witch of endor...funny that he doesn't hold her to be a witch but she even knew she was a witch.

1 Samuel 28:9
9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

Oh and by the way...you said that Benson quoted this about the Bible...yet he didn't include 1 verse...hmm interesting.

I started out in post by saying that if one did not really hold the Bible as their standard for truth...then they would probaly feel this post wasn't for them.

I challenge you to see what THE BIBLE has to say on the subject of the state of the dead....and compare it to what Benson has to say...but keep in mind the BIble verse that says...

Romans 3:3-4
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

NothingButLove my advice to anyone is to believe as you will...BUT make sure you are ready to face whatever music YOU have chosen to dance to....

Peace...

Karen
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 2:34AM #4
NothingButLove
Posts: 715

I challenge you to see what THE BIBLE has to say on the subject of the state of the dead....and compare it to what Benson has to say...but keep in mind the BIble verse that says...



Well I pass on that. I have spent enough of my life on the Bible, I find better things to read now. More accurate things. The Bible is only meaningful to those who REFUSE to read what the deceased have already said to us. They have done their very best to tell us, and still you folks won't listen. So, when you find yourself on the otherside, just remember YOU were the one who refused to listen.

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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 9:35AM #5
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
"Well I pass on that. I have spent enough of my life on the Bible, I find better things to read now. More accurate things. The Bible is only meaningful to those who REFUSE to read what the deceased have already said to us. "



There is nothing MORE accurate than the Holy Word of God....and ...
I have no need to speak to the so-called dead...  I have a Living God who sees, hears, and knows all , He is Alpha and Omega
Isaiah 8:19:
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

whether you choose to believe that the so-called dead that you communicating with are actually demons is your choice, but that doesn't make The Bible which is the inspired word of God, inaccurate.  Take a minute to ask yourself...what other Book is so ridiculed, so unbelieved, and so misused...than the Bible...that would make me wonder if someone...or in this case "something" has a vandetta against it... but why???





"They have done their very best to tell us, and still you folks won't listen. So, when you find yourself on the otherside, just remember YOU were the one who refused to listen."







NothingButLove.....
I have no fear of death...you know why?  because I serve the True Living God...who holds the keys to not only Life, but also of death...


Revelation 1:18:
   I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


....and I thank Jesus that  when I do find my self on the "Other Side" it will be because I refused to listen to the lies and the doctrines of devils.....

1 Timothy 4:1
   Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;



Prayerfully,

Karen
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 8:09PM #6
NothingButLove
Posts: 715

theremnantgirl wrote:


whether you choose to believe that the so-called dead that you communicating with are actually demons is your choice, but that doesn't make The Bible which is the inspired word of God, inaccurate.  Take a minute to ask yourself...what other Book is so ridiculed, so unbelieved, and so misused...than the Bible...that would make me wonder if someone...or in this case "something" has a vandetta against it... but why???



Actually I do believe the Bible has a very important truth, but its not one you have learned. And in fact Jesus himself had to come and explain it. And it seems that because you are not interested in hearing what it was that he said, you won't learn that truth while in this life. Then, the more important test will come. Whether you will learn that truth in the next. Many don't. Because you see the next place you will go to, after death, is not eternal. Even though pretty much all who live there think it is.

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6 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2008 - 10:50AM #7
itty
Posts: 2,949
[QUOTE]well for starters if you do not view the Bible as a reliable source then you probably feel this post isn't for you. I can't be the judge of that...hopefully even non-Bible believers will find something here...all are welcomed.
[/QUOTE]

Which is why I have steered clear of this thread. Until now.

I don't view the bible as a reliable source.  It isn't a seamless book telling one story. It is a compilation of books from differing and at time contradictory sources that has been edited to make it fit coherently together .My POV is that it is comprised of myth and allegory, poetry and prose, legend , some fact and garbled oral teaching. Many, if not most, of the creation stories in Genesis were taken from other, more ancient creation myths of the middleast. Two of my favorite sources for this are Crossan and Armstrong.

It has been edited, reworked, redacted, translated and re-translated many times. It contains many errors because of those things. Some versions and translations are far worse than others.

Many people proof text when speaking of the bible in a setting such as this. That would be taking one or several verses out of the context in which they were written then stringing them together in order to make a specific point. I think this sort of manipulation discredits what is being said. The context, cultural milieu, factual historical background and their interrelation are, IMO, critical to truly understanding  what the verses are trying to teach.

Exegesis isn't just for the scholarly either. Again, IMO, it is imperative to understanding. If you want to know Jesus then know all of him. Know his background, his country's history, his culture, his faith base as a practicing and devout Jew, his gnosis about the Kingdom of heaven and I could go on.  Know Paul in the same fashion. I think Paul did a major rewrite of Jesus' story in order to make it accessible, and compelling, for people who weren't Jewish. Read Paul, compare him to James then do it again while reading Essenger. A different story emerges from the murkiness.

I find that you, in my opinion, are engaging in prooftexting here.  Certainly your right but for me it makes your writing suspect at best and dishonest at worst.

I am not Christian. I am Pagan. I am Wiccan. I do respect the Christian faith as valid with a historical background. I would never tell you or any Christian that your path is false and your god is a demon or a devil.  I would not denigrate your choice to follow your religion. Debate about its points- yes; dismiss it as false- NEVER!
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2008 - 11:19AM #8
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
[QUOTE=NothingButLove;624927]Actually I do believe the Bible has a very important truth, but its not one you have learned. And in fact Jesus himself had to come and explain it.

You said that the Bible has "a" truth....I would beg to disagree...according to the Bible...Jesus is "THE" truth...

John 14:6:

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

and the biblet testifies of Jesus....

John 5:39:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

so you can't have one with out the other.



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And it seems that because you are not interested in hearing what it was that he said, you won't learn that truth while in this life.



That's your opinion and you are entitled to that as far as me not being interested in what He had to say.  What I will admit that I am not interested in hearing is a bunch of lies from demons who are masquerading as dead loved ones.  You keep stating that I will learn the truth in the "next life" and you try to insinuate that I should be afraid of what lies on the other side and as I stated yesterday ...I have no fear of death....because I have eternal life right now...because of Jesus and His blood that was shed for the remission of my sins....

John 6:54:
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And please understand that it is not my intention to argue and I won't because The Bible is it's own interpeter...

Isaiah 28:10:
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13:
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken

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Then, the more important test will come. Whether you will learn that truth in the next. Many don't. Because you see the next place you will go to, after death, is not eternal. Even though pretty much all who live there think it is.[/QUOTE]


Everyday that I live is a test...whether I will live for Christ or not. 
1 Corinthians 15:31
31:I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


He is my Eternity...Because He is Life.

Revelation 1:18:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 21:6:
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

This is Truth that I choose to believe....Jesus.....

Peace,
Karen
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2008 - 11:25AM #9
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
Thankyou for your post.  I actually addressed your stance with my statement that you included in your post.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  I am not here to debate and will not.  I will simply present the facts based on My standard of truth the Bible.  Again thank you for your post.

Peace,
Karen
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2008 - 12:04PM #10
theremnantgirl
Posts: 99
Itty I am sorry I submitted the post before i was ready see it below....


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Thankyou for your post.  I actually addressed your stance with my statement that you included in your post.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  I am not here to debate and will not.  I will simply present the facts based on The True Standard of truth.... the Bible.
I will say this though...your arguments are not anything new..it's funny that the book that you claim is so seamless and one sided ...actually addressed your stance on the validity of itself...

2 Peter 3:1-5
   1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

   2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

   3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

   4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

   5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:



For the Bible to be so meaningless it sure addressed alot of what you actually said...

regardless of what people hold as truth...it doesn't make the Bible any less valid...

Romans 3:4:
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Itty...it is definitely not my intention to offend...but if it comes down to speaking the truth and to hurting someone's feelings...then I am always going to speak the truth.  That is why I started a thread of my own...people have the choice to look, respond, disagree, whatever...
but because of Who I serve I am responsible for speaking the truth.

Jesus came and died for us while we were yet sinners and the good part of it is that He is not willing any should perish ...even if you are a pagan I am pretty sure you are familiar with John 3:16 and verse 17...which alot of times  people overlook...  John 3:16-17


16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




why is it so hard to accept that there is a REAL God who loves us.....

I have had many terrible experiences in my life and the only help and hope that I could find was not in myself, was not in mother nature,ect.  but it was and still is in Christ ...


  Again thank you for your post.

Peace,
Karen
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