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6 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2008 - 2:37AM #1
many_worlds_traveler
Posts: 8
Where is the logic for a place like Hell? [coming from a traditional Judeo-Christian upbringing and using the Bible as a reference for the following points.]

- 1. The God who created this world has provided a continued use and re-use for all manner of material things: fungus, viruses, bacteria, even manure or waste.

-2. The God who created this world has said that among all created beings, human beings were "made in His image," and beloved as a special and unique creation, placing them in dominion over all the Earth.

-3. The God who created this world has repeatedly referred to humanity as His children.

-4. The God who created this world has been defined [in the Gospels] as LOVE.

-5. Would not the concept of eternal damnation be similar to killing your "child" in order to teach them a lesson? [There would certainly be no lessons learned in Hell, for the very purpose of learning is application for the betterment of the learned.]

-6. Would not all of God's "children" be able to serve even the most humble purpose? [After all, this is the God that puts feces to work in our gardens.]

Now, can someone please explain how an omnipotent, omniscient God of all Gods would lay out the afterlife with a design to include an eternal Hell? It simply cannot be that He is "okay" or even "sad" that some of His precious "children" are burning in eternal pain. I feel infinitely more love and compassion for my own daughter than that previous point would suggest. What kind of "Father" would be okay with any of His "children" dying? To make matters worse, it appears that God is playing a losing game, with the ones that matter most to Him. In fact "they" matter so much that [John 3:16] He gave His only begotten Son a part of Himself to die for us. Yet still they burn, while the smoke from Hell's flames curls under His very nostrils. The God I believe in does NOT play losing games. He does not throw away anything, especially not His most beloved "children." He is LOVE and LIGHT and the heart and soul of all wisdom and understanding!

My question is not meant to blaspheme or to offend, simply to learn more about the motives of God and the world in which I reside. I seek wisdom and I want answers, anyone who would like to impart their own wisdom, experience or teachings feel free to share. Nothing is too bold or too hot of a topic for me. Life is too damn short, and there are far too many questions to answer.

On a side-note... why call us His "children" would not "glorious pet" be a better title? Unless of course, He actually expects us to become just like Him, isn't that what "children" do, grow up to be like their parents? I wouldn't expect my chocolate lab to go to college one day, but I do expect something similar from my daughter. The word "children" is very profound!
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2008 - 1:21PM #2
spiritalk
Posts: 1,165
Perhaps you answered your own questions - the Bible is just not the best source for spiritually progressive ideas.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2008 - 12:04AM #3
many_worlds_traveler
Posts: 8
I would very much like to read the above mentioned thesis... Do you know who wrote it, and where I might be able to get it.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 17, 2008 - 11:56AM #4
Hipi75
Posts: 220
I don't think Hell is as much of a punishment as it is a consequence.

The Father says "stick your hand in the fire & you shall be burned."  The child sticks her hand in the fire, gets burned & thinks her Father did it deliberately.  But she's wrong.  She was irresponsible & toyed with something whose nature it was to burn.

Wherever God is NOT, is hell.  You go against him, you seperate yourself from him, & that seperation itself is hell...  a consequence that seems like a punishment.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 17, 2008 - 1:19PM #5
Lookbeyond
Posts: 578
Hell: "where the I am meets the I could have been, should have been, would have been had I learned obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

If I do not conform to the laws of eternal happiness, I will receive a lesser degree of happiness as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15......

The following was taken from the site: www.lds.org  search under topic "Hell"

Hell
See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76: 81-86; 88: 100-101).
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88: 35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76: 43-46).
The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.
David’s soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16: 10 (Ps. 86: 13). Go into hell, into that fire that never shall be quenched, Mark 9: 43 (Mosiah 2: 38). The rich man in hell lifts up his eyes, being in torment, Luke 16: 22-23 (D&C 104: 18). Death and hell delivered up the dead, Rev. 20: 13. There is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell, 1 Ne. 15: 35. The will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to bring us down to hell, 2 Ne. 2: 29. Christ prepared the way for our deliverance from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9: 10-12. Those who remain filthy go into everlasting torment, 2 Ne. 9: 16. The devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell, 2 Ne. 28: 21. Jesus hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 33: 6. Loose yourselves from the pains of hell, Jacob 3: 11. To be taken captive by the devil and led by his will to destruction are the chains of hell, Alma 12: 11. The wicked are cast into outer darkness until the time of their resurrection, Alma 40: 13-14. The filthy would be more miserable to dwell with God than to dwell in hell, Morm. 9: 4. The punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, D&C 19: 10-12. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, D&C 29: 37-38. Those who acknowledge God are delivered from death and the chains of hell, D&C 138: 23.


D&C 138: 23
  23 And the saints rejoiced in their aredemption, and bowed the bknee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the cchains of dhell.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 19, 2008 - 10:26PM #6
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950
I wrote a book on this subject.  There is no hell as we define it.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2008 - 8:56PM #7
Namchuck
Posts: 11,802
Like the concept of God itself, heaven and hell are imaginary worlds dreamed up by our ancient ancestors who lived in a primitive and demon-haunted world. There is no more reason to conjure up a hell today than there reason to conjure up a devil.

In regards to life after death, while I like the idea, there simply isn't any robust evidence for it that passes close scrutiny. What we do know is that there are at least two deep-seated psychological needs in humans: the need for security and the need for self-preservation. We have invented God to meet the first need, and life after death to meet the second.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 6:43PM #8
Namchuck
Posts: 11,802
[QUOTE=Original angel;931238]Namchuk. how convenient you use words such as we build from where may I ask. desires?
Existence is a big subject. but more important is to undestand and define what is that which exist.ie( the self) we play with word like ilusion, delusion and we use them in order to combince our self how correct, reasonable our position or reason is. the truth as I see it is that unless one knows who one is one is lost. you know as well as I what is the art of retoric. which emable us to refute or acept any theory when misused we lose the sence of honesty and from there is a down hill experience. I do not acuse you of that I urge you to separate with in what is the true you and what is the effect that you make but is not you. I call that  the discovery of your true self.
when I did that  I discover what is mind, past lives and many other things as well.
I wish you more or better than what I have
original angel[/QUOTE]

Although I recognized many of the words in your post above, Original angel, their somewhat incoherent combination practically defies translation, making it, consequently, rather difficult to launch a response.

Perhaps you would do me the favor and attempt to re-couch your post in more comprehensible terms.

At this juncture all I can do is reiterate what I have already posted.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 6:43PM #9
Namchuck
Posts: 11,802
[QUOTE=Original angel;931238]Namchuk. how convenient you use words such as we build from where may I ask. desires?
Existence is a big subject. but more important is to undestand and define what is that which exist.ie( the self) we play with word like ilusion, delusion and we use them in order to combince our self how correct, reasonable our position or reason is. the truth as I see it is that unless one knows who one is one is lost. you know as well as I what is the art of retoric. which emable us to refute or acept any theory when misused we lose the sence of honesty and from there is a down hill experience. I do not acuse you of that I urge you to separate with in what is the true you and what is the effect that you make but is not you. I call that  the discovery of your true self.
when I did that  I discover what is mind, past lives and many other things as well.
I wish you more or better than what I have
original angel[/QUOTE]

Although I recognized many of the words in your post above, Original angel, their somewhat incoherent combination practically defies translation, making it, consequently, rather difficult to launch a response.

Perhaps you would do me the favor and attempt to re-couch your post in more comprehensible terms.

At this juncture all I can do is reiterate what I have already posted.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 1:40AM #10
Namchuck
Posts: 11,802
[QUOTE=Original angel;936009]Hi Namchuck
let me try again.
We exist  under conditions where is very dificult to know and understand what the self is.
the average individual adopt a personality,identitie acept it and conduct it self trough its entire life in that manner acept it and this is what this individual consider it self to be.
when in truth it is just a identtitie taken by the self which aloud the self to exist and play in life.
any one superficialy will agree with the above and will not examen at depth the dip idea in the above sentence. because of the may fears which this idea may bring to them.
But if one examen the above at depth one will face what the self ultimately is the observer.the one which continously percive and construct concept, ideas and ultimately ones reality.all this is said in order for you or any one to realize that we know very litle about what our mind is, emotions, conditioning, intelect, intuition , illusion and desires.
this self does not have a location it percive trhough the perceptic of the body and because it consider that generaly the body is  its location but when one or science atempt to locate it is unable to find it so, is not matter even do that with  the mind and brain it can controll matter energy and what it does in life.
many individaul curious enough have spend considerable amount of time in their lives doing meditation and contemplating this issue and they have gain certanties in to a better undertanding of what is the self. and because of when they experience past lives they are more ready and able to acept them as true and correct.
we all are diferent. I have said many time that I cant force you or any one in to any thing that you do not agree or want.I can only convey what experience have  aloud me to be what I'm.
also my understanding of the scale of emotion have help me very much by using proactiveness as a way to conduct my self and deal with my ideas or concept.
I hope this help
original angel[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your attempt at clarification, Original angel.

Although I would essentially agree with you that the formation of the "self" is a process of transforming general psychic energy into specific psycho-social energy that is mediated by the social character (and the means by which the social character is formed is essentially cultural - through the agency of the parents society transmits to the young its values, proscriptions, commands, and so on), I do not think there is any compelling evidence that any such thing as a "true self" exists.

In fact, on the contrary, new ideas from four frontiers of knowledge - the sciences of mind, brain, genes, and evolution, which are giving us a new understanding of human nature - completely undermine such an hypothesis. Consciousness turns out to consist of a maelstrom of events distributed across the brain and that these events compete for attention, and as one event outshouts the others, the brain rationalizes the outcome after the fact and concocts the illusion that a single "true self" was in charge all along.

And what you say about science being "unable" to locate the 'true self" is no longer the case. It is also interesting to note that Buddhism, which has spent more time, energy, and meditation on the nature of the "self" than any other religion or engaged philosophy, has happily discovered that its own hard-sought-for perceptions that conclude that the supposed foundational self is illusory has been largely confirmed by modern brain science.

Yes, we are all different, but those aspects that determine our differences can also be explained in completely naturalistic terms. The only past lives that manifest in us, and that we "experience", are entirely genetic in nature, inherited from our ancestors from a long line of successful breeders.
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