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Switch to Forum Live View If you truly believe in everlasting life...
6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 2:54AM #1
RevKeithWright
Posts: 137
...and you are a Christian..then how do you reconcile grief.  To those of us who are not Christian..and quite comfortable with our mortality and lack of belief in a heaven or hell...to hear all of the rhetoric about accepting Christ and believing in life everlasting, makes those arguments lose all credence....and your expressions of grief show us that you have little or no faith at all in what you report to believe in.

If the ultimate prize/reward to a Christian were to be with God then why is it looked upon with grief?  That makes no sense to me at all.  I can't reconcile it no matter how much logic I apply.logic to it.  If Christians truly believed in life everlasting, then they would celebrate death as a joyous occasion (which I believe Christians logically would mark the passage of this short period of eternity) instead of dread, morose, sadness, mourning, depression, angst, regret, etc.  .   Even eulogies make no sense.  The speaking of a person who has "died" in the past-tense makes no sense if the person is still alive or is going to heaven.  The fact that you must wait a few years to be with them should be of no consequence if you believe in heaven...all of this pomp and ceremony makes non-believers look at this display and shake our heads.

(The same logical problems with heaven apply to the "sacrifice of Christ...if he always lived in heaven...spent a few years on earth...then went home...how is that...and the fact that he is immortal in the first place...a sacrifice...to me...true death, with NO EVERLASTING LIFE is the ONLY sacrifice.  If Jesus truly "died" and went into the ground and not heaven, THEN I would consider THAT to be a SACRIFICE...but to think that dieing on the cross a sacrifice is absurd.)

Oddly...I know there will be posts condemning my ideas...I accept that.  I am merely holding a mirror to you to show you how you appear to others who don't believe as you do.  If Christians were to change how they express the transition of someone to heaven then many would look at them and say, "WOW!  that is an expression of true faith in everlasting life...that is fresh!  I want to be part of that belief system! "

As long as you mourn a glorious event, we will just look, and scratch our heads in disbelief.

Part II

"The Other Side"
researchers have shown that by stimulating sections of the brain, that NDE's can be triggered...with all of the bells and whistles that are reported by the faithful.  This will not be accepted by them as much as telling primitive peoples that their dancing doesn't cause the sun to rise or the rain to fall or that a sacrifice causes the crops to thrive.

Heaven?  Don't need it.  I am wonderfully aware that I am made from the carbon from the shell of a dead star...the carbon atoms in my body came from there...it didn't just "POOF" into existance...the carbon in my body is billions (not thousands) of years old.  I am in awe of creation and the wonderous fact that I am alive.  To believe in the biblical account of creation insults the wonder of creation and the framework of possibility which God created...you see, the biblical account makes our existance, ordained and contrived...to look at creation as a lattice where we "happened" rather than were created makes our existance even more awesome and attests to the wonder and majesty of God...God didn't create us, God created the possibility of our existance and that, my friends, knocks me to my knees in humility.  To me, THAT is Intelligent Design.

I am quite happy in experiencing this lottery windfall of existance..I am aware that I will never again experience what I am experiencing at this time...I will not poo-poo it away and slap God in the face by expecting more than the joy of life...THIS life.  To believe in heaven is telling God that you aren't satisfied at the wonder of life...you want MORE!  You want ETERNAL life...No thanks.  I will enjoy everything I can in this life, and leave heaven for those who aren't satisfied with the gift of life.

Part III

Prayer

Duke, and other university medical centers, have done extensive studies on prayer, and except for researchers who are silently and overtly skewing data due to their association with a front organization of the Campus Crusades for Christ (apologetics.org), they have proven that prayer has no effect on patients...Reading, visiting, playing music DID. (Stop saying prayers and DO something!).  Sorry, you can say all you want about how you prayed for this or that and I will ask why Georgia is still in a severe drought in spite of Rev...I mean Gov. Perdue and his prayer for rain (call the Navajo's...maybe they can help).

Why doesn't everyone trust in God?  Why is it that you know better than the laws of nature and how life unfolds according tho them?  When will you, "Let go and let God?"

I hope this creates some internal discussions within yourselves.  As a former Christian of almost 30 years, my relationship with God began when I closed my bible and looked up to the heavens and found that God wasn't IN the bible...God was everywhere but there.  The proof wasn't in a word...it was in CREATION.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 5:16AM #2
dantheman.penny
Posts: 7
In answer to your first part about grief, I guess really that is what deep down as humans we all feel when we lose someone. To us it seems that even though we should be celebrating "Meeting our Maker" I cannot think of anyone I know who has lost someone, and has had their joy for the departure overpower the grief.

I think that this is a demonstration of one of the merits of human nature: a demonstration our compassion.

The fact that we feel the loss hurts us is because, I believe, we were created to be highly social creatures.

I admit there has been a lot of hypocrasy apparently demonstrated. But if we were to be ecstatic and celebrating  a close relative's death, would not any non Christian still as you said "look, and scratch [your] heads in disbelief" because you mourn your loss?
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 10:06AM #3
RevKeithWright
Posts: 137
No...I would think that you believed in what you said you believed instead of saying one thing and acting in another.  I wouldn't scratch my head over your practicing what you preach....it is the absolute absence across Christianity which makes me doubt your belief...as for being social...what does that have to do with believing in life everlasting...or compassion...Do you grieve when a friend leaves for and extended vacation and decides to live where they went to stay and you never see them again?  Do you wear black and go into mourning over their departure? NO!///then why do you grieve over it when they leave  and you claim to be joining them in a relative blink of an eye?

(scratches head...)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 4:19PM #4
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
hi keithwright. does 'rev' stand for reverend? what are you a reverend of?

my dad's memorial service was this past saturday. we're catholics. in his homily, the priest said the funeral moment, for us, is a moment of celebration. it's a moment when you take stock of the good that was and the good that will come. i have not felt grief about my dad passing. pride, joy, blessed -- those i have felt.

also, traditionally, at least in my corner of catholicism, there were no eulogies. it is an american custom to have one, however. in america, the church makes a provision for this (tho it still doesn't like for it to go on and on), and we did allow one person to speak in remembrance.

so... as a christian, i'm don't really know where you're coming from.

on the other hand, i do understand the grief and disappointment of others. i don't feel bad about my dad dying... but you know, we won't be doing some things we had planned and that i had set my heart on. and you mention a few years being of no consequence... and i say maybe so, maybe so... but i'll tell you what, when i was little i'd start looking for my dad to come home at 6:30 p.m. and by 6:45, if he hadn't arrived, i'd be devastated. i had no purpose in this. rarely had anything to say or to show. wasn't waiting to be read to or to play games with him. it was a bit like... the golden compass books actually... and the pain one feels if one's daemon moves too far away from one's self for too long.

and on that note, the notions of heaven and hell as we know them -- they're not perfectly christian. really, the truth of christianity is, earth is the place for humans. and the body is no shell. when we die, we are waiting for resurrection, a perfected body which is essential to who we are, and the kingdom to come. we may go to meet god, yes, but the eternal after-life is still yet to come.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 5:06PM #5
NothingButLove
Posts: 715

RevKeithWright wrote:

No...I would think that you believed in what you said you believed instead of saying one thing and acting in another.  I wouldn't scratch my head over your practicing what you preach....it is the absolute absence across Christianity which makes me doubt your belief...as for being social...what does that have to do with believing in life everlasting...or compassion...Do you grieve when a friend leaves for and extended vacation and decides to live where they went to stay and you never see them again?  Do you wear black and go into mourning over their departure? NO!///then why do you grieve over it when they leave  and you claim to be joining them in a relative blink of an eye?

(scratches head...)



I have to agree with you. I quite look forward to funerals, as I typically get a big hug from the deceased, as I am probably the only one there talking to them, and able to feel their presence.  But the last funeral I went to, she wasn't there. Bothered me a bit.

Of course some of the Christian dogma that folks preach and others believe is enough to make you grieve. All that stuff about lying in the grave till Jesus' comes again. Well I also believe Jesus will return, but last I heard its likely to still be thousands of years. He won't come again until we have created heaven on earth here, and at the rate we are going, its looking less and less likely.

But it is natural to grieve the loss of a loved one from this material world, even knowing we will see them in a few score years.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 11:50PM #6
AshGirl
Posts: 31
I think we grieve because we miss them.  Even if we believe there is an afterlife it still hurts because we can't see them anymore.

Life is wonderful and definately worth living.  We are here to learn and grow to our full potentials, so it is especially hard when someone dies young, even if they are going to a better place.

BTW, I don't really consider myself christian so my opinion might not matter.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2008 - 11:59PM #7
NothingButLove
Posts: 715

AshGirl wrote:


BTW, I don't really consider myself christian so my opinion might not matter.



Strange comment, in my opinion. Unless you think only the majority should voice their opinions?

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2008 - 12:23AM #8
AshGirl
Posts: 31
No. Everyone should say what they think.  It just seems that the thread is aimed at christians.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2008 - 10:39PM #9
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950
Why do mothers of the bride cry at the wedding?  Because although they know that it is necessary for their daughters to grow on with their life they still will miss their "little girl."  AshGirl is quite right.

Regarding NDEs, there are many ways to attain the bright light and body separation sensations, and perhaps actual projection of self.

Duke U. proved that some people could affect the statistical outcome of events with their thoughts under some conditions.  As far as I am aware they never performed any healing experiments.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2008 - 10:01AM #10
spiritalk
Posts: 1,165
Healing studies were done by Dr. Grad of Montreal University as well as the water experiments done by Dr. Emoto (sp?).  There is some evidence for the power of prayer and thought in healing of the body, mind, spirit connection.

AshGirl seems to have hit the proverbial nail on the head....we would be very uncaring human beings indeed if we did not grieve and miss those that had been such a part of our learning experiences on earth.  The whole process of life is about learning through our relationships.  To miss them would then be a natural progression.
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