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Switch to Forum Live View What the Bible Really Says About Gays
2 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 7:34PM #1
Druac
Posts: 11,554

I found this blog on CNN, by a theologian and psychotherapist, very interesting:

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-tak...


We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.


In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.






How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.


The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."


The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.


Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation




As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.


The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.





On top of the realities this guy points out, I still contend that gay came before marriage...and it probably even came before religion!

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
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2 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 9:37PM #2
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 15, 2012 -- 7:34PM, Druac wrote:


I found this blog on CNN, by a theologian and psychotherapist, very interesting:

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-tak...


We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.


In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.






How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.


The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."


The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.


Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation




As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.


The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.





On top of the realities this guy points out, I still contend that gay came before marriage...and it probably even came before religion!





Do you have a degree in Theology and which Seminary conferred it onto you?

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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2 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 10:27PM #3
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,149

The meanings of original languages of the Bible  are often changed in translation.  That is the case of modern languages also, translating exactly is very difficult  and often next to impossible.  Cultural norms are difficult to translate also.  Druac has a plausible


I do not think that Druac has a theological degree but I do from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, a very conservative School operated by the Southern Baptist Convention.   Regardless of a the leanings or the school, Greek and Hebrew  words have  the  same meanings at liberal and  conservative schools and secular schools  that teach the classical languages 

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:58AM #4
Druac
Posts: 11,554

May 15, 2012 -- 9:37PM, Roodog wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 7:34PM, Druac wrote:


I found this blog on CNN, by a theologian and psychotherapist, very interesting:

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-tak...


We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.


In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.






How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.


The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."


The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; it should read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.


Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation




As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.


The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.





On top of the realities this guy points out, I still contend that gay came before marriage...and it probably even came before religion!





Do you have a degree in Theology and which Seminary conferred it onto you?




I don't...but this guy does...which was my point in the first place.


Do you? Do you have some evidence that speaks to his claims being false? I am no expert...far from it. But I have been reading much about this lately and this guy speaks reality as far as I understand it.


Do you understand it differently than he does? Can you point to something that contradicts it?


Are you speaking to what this guy is saying or my opinion that gay came before all of it?


Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 12:28PM #5
Jasr
Posts: 11,269

Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing.


If He was indifferent to it, it is certainly very puzzling that so many American right wing Christians should be so utterly obsessed with it.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 12:56PM #6
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,149

May 16, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Jasr wrote:


Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing.


If He was indifferent to it, it is certainly very puzzling that so many American right wing Christians should be so utterly obsessed with it.






But who wants to listen to Jesus, He hung around with tax collectors, poor folk, fishermen, prostitutes, and served wine at parties.  

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 1:07PM #7
Jasr
Posts: 11,269

May 16, 2012 -- 12:56PM, Fodaoson wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Jasr wrote:


Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing.


If He was indifferent to it, it is certainly very puzzling that so many American right wing Christians should be so utterly obsessed with it.






But who wants to listen to Jesus, He hung around with tax collectors, poor folk, fishermen, prostitutes, and served wine at parties.  





Actually it was even worse than that...he made wine at parties.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 1:39PM #8
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,589

May 16, 2012 -- 1:07PM, Jasr wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 12:56PM, Fodaoson wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Jasr wrote:


Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing.


If He was indifferent to it, it is certainly very puzzling that so many American right wing Christians should be so utterly obsessed with it.






But who wants to listen to Jesus, He hung around with tax collectors, poor folk, fishermen, prostitutes, and served wine at parties.  





Actually it was even worse than that...he made wine at parties.





I have heard fundagelicals argue that it was unfermented grape juice, per Methodist teetotaler layman's Mr Welch's creation.


Here's a point:  In St-Paul, the kaine ktsis, i.e. new being or new person or new creation, Jesus Christ brings is:  sexless, no religious distinction, no distinction, at all, cf. Galatians 3.27.


If any person can figure out a way to keep Jesus Christ away from a baptism of "the gays" or the marriage of "the gays," please explain how that is possible. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 2:03PM #9
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,653

Jasr #5
Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to
....what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing....BUT....How about "sex sins"?


Matthew 15:18-20 (NASB)...Jesus to Peter / disciples: The Sin Nature of Man
18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart (spirit/soul of Man),
and those defile (make impure/sinful) the man.
19  For out of the heart come
evil thoughts, murders,
adulteries, ...adulteries,   Koine Greek 3430 μοιχεα - moicheia (sex with others while married)
fornications, (sexual immorality)...fornications,   Koine Greek 4202 πορνεα - porneia (sex with others without being married)
thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”


1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NASB)
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;


The Genesis example and OT Law / NT confirmation governing sex and spiritual marriage has never considered anything except male-female "one flesh" unions as being approved by God.


Because LGBT sexual relationships do not arise out of "marriage", they are sinful,... fall short of God's perfect will


Moderated by Stardove on May 17, 2012 - 03:53PM
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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 2:13PM #10
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,703

May 16, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Jasr wrote:


Theology aside, if you are a Christian you should probably pay the most attention to what Christ himself said about homosexuality, which is exactly nothing.


If He was indifferent to it, it is certainly very puzzling that so many American right wing Christians should be so utterly obsessed with it.




He would not have been indifferent to it, nor to anything else that had been written prior to his birth.  As you well know, he would have studied extensively the Torah as well as other writings present at the time.  He was a Jew, born and raised, and would have followed the law as was required.


What he brought to the table was what the Jewish leadership could not understand at the time: that obedience to the law was not enough for God the Father.  Obedience had to be reconciled with relationship to one another.  That is why there were numerous commandments in the Law concerning treatment of Slaves, forgiveness of debt, treatment of the poor, things that on a reltionship level the Jewish leadership was utterly failing at.


But to say that because the Gospel writers failed to scribe a particular subject concerning Jesus is not a strong argument.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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