Post Reply
Page 4 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Gay, Bullying, and Suicide
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 8:34AM #31
TemplarS
Posts: 6,926

May 8, 2012 -- 10:31PM, mountain_man wrote:


One of the reforms will require school districts to have procedures in place to address bullying complaints. But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."






Well, great.  In addition to be broad enough to render it meaningless (what sort of "statement"?)  these people are evidently stupid enough not to realize that this opens the door to things far beond gay issues.


Baptists can harass Catholics, just like the good old days.


Muslims can bully Christians.


And, in another great old tradition, everybody can harrass Jews.


Or Mormons.  Wonder whether Mr. Romney will have anything to say now?

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 9:49AM #32
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,722

May 9, 2012 -- 8:34AM, TemplarS wrote:

Well, great.  In addition to be broad enough to render it meaningless (what sort of "statement"?)  these people are evidently stupid enough not to realize that this opens the door to things far beond gay issues.



The section isn't anywhere near broad enough to render to render the bill meaningless.  The following section of the bill, though, is far more damaging:


(9) THIS SECTION APPLIES ONLY TO CONDUCT BY A PUPIL DIRECTED
6 AT 1 OR MORE OTHER PUPILS AND, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED IN THIS
7 SECTION, DOES NOT APPLY TO CONDUCT BY ANY OTHER PERSON, INCLUDING,
8 BUT NOT LIMITED TO, A SCHOOL EMPLOYEE, A SCHOOL VOLUNTEER WHO IS
9 NOT A PUPIL, OR A PUPIL'S PARENT OR GUARDIAN.





 

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 10:05AM #33
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 9, 2012 -- 8:34AM, TemplarS wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 10:31PM, mountain_man wrote:


One of the reforms will require school districts to have procedures in place to address bullying complaints. But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."






Well, great.  In addition to be broad enough to render it meaningless (what sort of "statement"?)  these people are evidently stupid enough not to realize that this opens the door to things far beond gay issues.


Baptists can harass Catholics, just like the good old days.


Muslims can bully Christians.


And, in another great old tradition, everybody can harrass Jews.


Or Mormons.  Wonder whether Mr. Romney will have anything to say now?




You're making it more complicated than it needs to be.


For example, a Christian student saying, "I believe Jesus was the Messiah" is a perfectly polite and acceptable statment, and not the same thing as him saying, "Those Christ-killer Jews are all bound for Hell if they don't repent."


Likewise, a student saying, "My religious beliefs hold that marriage is between man and woman," is not the same thing as saying, "Gays are wretched sinners, repulsive in God's eyes, as He damns them, so do I."


In other words, it should not be rocket science to figure out where to draw the line.


Religion, of course, should not be taught in public schools -- so that principle alone limits what teachers and administrators might be able to say.


 But I don't see why students should be forced to simply not express their faith at all, so long as it is kept civil. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 1:27PM #34
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

May 8, 2012 -- 10:31PM, mountain_man wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 6:04PM, mainecaptain wrote:

How many of those who will not condemn bullying, are in fact bullies themselves.?


I'd figure quite a few. Recently some congressman, of course it would be a male, tried to add something to an anti-bullying bill that would make the bullying OK if it was because of a "deeply held religious belief."


Wait, I was wrong... here's the story:


The Michigan Senate passed legislation Wednesday [November 2011] that requires school districts to develop anti-bullying policies, but the father of the boy for whom the bill is named says he has strong objections to language inserted at the last minute.


One of the reforms will require school districts to have procedures in place to address bullying complaints. But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."


Kevin Epling, whose son Matt Epling killed himself in 2002 after being bullied, said that the added language will allow anyone to bully a student and cite their religious beliefs. He has worked with lawmakers for years to developed anti-bullying legislation. Source.


Other states have tried to do the same.


That just goes against EVERYTHING this country is supposed to stand for.




Which again goes to show how nasty a religion is, if it allows someone to say things that will drive someone to suicide. These basta**ds. Want to people keep the right to bully and abuse other people. They simply use their religions as an excuse. But then sometimes I think that is all some religions are anyway. The ability to abuse people and say it is in the name of their god, so it is perfectly fine.



You know if you think about it. ANd not very hard. They could actually use the


" But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."


Could be used to justify murder. I wonder how long it will take for that to be legal again? Witch burnings can't be too far behind.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 10:03PM #35
mountain_man
Posts: 40,258

May 9, 2012 -- 1:27PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Which again goes to show how nasty a religion is, if it allows someone to say things that will drive someone to suicide. These basta**ds. Want to people keep the right to bully and abuse other people. They simply use their religions as an excuse. But then sometimes I think that is all some religions are anyway. The ability to abuse people and say it is in the name of their god, so it is perfectly fine.


Everyone here knows I'm not a fan of the christian religion, but doesn't this go against everything that religion is supposed to stand for? How could anyone of that religion actually believe that their Jesus would be OK with bullying someone with the christian religion to the point the victim commits suicide?


Is there a christian out there that wants to defend this?


You know if you think about it. ANd not very hard. They could actually use the


" But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."


Could be used to justify murder. I wonder how long it will take for that to be legal again? Witch burnings can't be too far behind.


I can see some extremists doing just that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 10:22PM #36
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

May 9, 2012 -- 10:03PM, mountain_man wrote:


May 9, 2012 -- 1:27PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Which again goes to show how nasty a religion is, if it allows someone to say things that will drive someone to suicide. These basta**ds. Want to people keep the right to bully and abuse other people. They simply use their religions as an excuse. But then sometimes I think that is all some religions are anyway. The ability to abuse people and say it is in the name of their god, so it is perfectly fine.


Everyone here knows I'm not a fan of the christian religion, but doesn't this go against everything that religion is supposed to stand for? How could anyone of that religion actually believe that their Jesus would be OK with bullying someone with the christian religion to the point the victim commits suicide?


Is there a christian out there that wants to defend this?


You know if you think about it. ANd not very hard. They could actually use the


" But the bill now also has language that says requirements don't "prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian."


Could be used to justify murder. I wonder how long it will take for that to be legal again? Witch burnings can't be too far behind.


I can see some extremists doing just that.




Yes as far as I can tell it is suppose to go against what Christianity stands for. My mother was a Christian. She was a nice lady, stayed out of other peoples business,  never hurt anyone in the years I knew her. Probably never hurt anyone her enitre life. That is what I thought Christians were like, then I grew up. I have become very disillusioned. I would like to be proved the other way, but...

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 2:28AM #37
karbie
Posts: 3,329

This kind of thing is why it's so laughable when the politicians or the jerks claim this is a "Christian" nation. The doctrines, preaching, and actions of so many sects are so full of hatred, anger, and delight imagining the tortures of Hell for everyone who doesn't agree with them it's sickening.


It doesn't matter to them whether or not their chosen target is actually gay; although of course if they are that seems to allow themselves to view their actions as being right.


In the narrowest sense, all you have to be is different. The bullies are horrible, but their real power comes from all the people who are too afraid of being the next target--or too relieved the bully has moved on from them--to try and help the victims. When you are being tormented and the "decent" people stand and watch rather than jeopardize their own standing, that's what makes their victims despair and give up.


"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:00PM #38
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

May 10, 2012 -- 2:28AM, karbie wrote:


This kind of thing is why it's so laughable when the politicians or the jerks claim this is a "Christian" nation. The doctrines, preaching, and actions of so many sects are so full of hatred, anger, and delight imagining the tortures of Hell for everyone who doesn't agree with them it's sickening.


It doesn't matter to them whether or not their chosen target is actually gay; although of course if they are that seems to allow themselves to view their actions as being right.


In the narrowest sense, all you have to be is different. The bullies are horrible, but their real power comes from all the people who are too afraid of being the next target--or too relieved the bully has moved on from them--to try and help the victims. When you are being tormented and the "decent" people stand and watch rather than jeopardize their own standing, that's what makes their victims despair and give up.



Exactly.



and most especially this line "When you are being tormented and the "decent" people stand and watch rather than jeopardize their own standing, that's what makes their victims despair and give up."



If you believe by example that your entire life will be the hell it is now, dying really seems the only way out of your pain. So yes bullies and their accomplices (the decent people who say nothing) are to blame for a victims death.


When you are being abused in that manner, you really can't see your life ever getting better.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:25PM #39
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,375

Do_unto_others:  When people castigate a gay person for starting too many gay threads, they're in fact projecting, and in a way telling me to STFU.


I guess I haven't been checking in lately.  Still, it's not like you're the only one to be rather, uh, prolific in rants.  There are times when it seems Discuss Christianity has a third of the first page taken up by the same poster.


TemplarS:  Anyhow, the point is, you can always find reasons why people behave in unacceptible ways. But that is no reason to tolerate such behavior.


But mytmouse57 has a point.  Since such large groupings are rather unnatural, bullying can be the same as spontaneous riots in hot, crowded areas.  It's not like people trapped in the Superdome were all nice and polite during Katrina.  While not for those reasons, I've been thinking that we need to rethink school structure for awhile now.  I think schools need to be kid versions of clinical labs while theory is taught online or in some other independent environment.  School hasn't been like the real world for quite some time.  I think it's time to change.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 2:05PM #40
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

But mytmouse57 has a point.  Since such large groupings are rather unnatural, bullying can be the same as spontaneous riots in hot, crowded areas.  It's not like people trapped in the Superdome were all nice and polite during Katrina.  While not for those reasons, I've been thinking that we need to rethink school structure for awhile now.  I think schools need to be kid versions of clinical labs while theory is taught online or in some other independent environment.  School hasn't been like the real world for quite some time.  I think it's time to change.""



Exactly. Never until in fairly recent history, did we just divide children up by rough age groupings (elementary, middle school, high school) and toss them by the hundreds -- or even thousands -- into big, institutional melting pots.


What the heck did we think would happen? Of course, a herd mentality will develop, and the "weak" will get trampled.


You are so right. School as we've known it for quite some time is not the "real world." It's an artifical environment that breeds the bizzare, and often vicious, sub-culture of cliques and "type" roles for kids to be crammed into.


We can wring our hands, puff up in righteous indignation over bullying, have all kind of touchy-feely sensitivity training and encounter group sessions, hoist the misery of whatever class of victims we've chosen to be the poster kids (be it gays, heavyset girls or nerdy, awkward kids) and rally around our feel good efforts to solve the problem and "save the children."


Nothing works quite so well for getting people worked up as "save the children," eh?


But the thing is, I think, that's all in avoidance of the actual problem. The system is f***ed, and has been for quite some time. Anybody who went through an institutionalized school system knows that.


Children and adolecents are still driven primarly by ego and rampant self-interest. Yes, I realize, some adults never outgrow that. But at least kids have a legitimate excuse, their brains and personalities are not fully devoloped. Therefore, again, the sub-culture(s) that will spring from massing children and adolecents together are bound to be more animalistic and, frankly, vicious. 


So, long as we take a mass institutional approach, kids will suffer. It's an intractable problem, because it's a systemic flaw, IMO.


Now, having just preached all that from my soap box, don't ask me what the long-term solution might be.  (LOL @ myself)

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 4 of 6  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook