If marriage is a Christian Sacrament, why does the Church (i.e. Christianity in general) tolerate the intrusion of the State into our sacrament?

Long time ago, in America and other nations populated mostly by Christian peoples of European ancestry, the Church apparently had no objections to the State getting involved with performing marriage ceremonies, thereby uniting heterosexual couples in marriage, and granting them an elevated legal status above that of single citizens.

But today things are very different, there has been a great push on the part of many citizens to further secularize the government, thereby magnifying the power of government, while pushing the Church and Christianity further away from the seat of power than ever before. And in the course of these events, certain groups of likeminded people have sought to change the meaning of marriage, and have its definitions broadened so as to allow same sex couples to marry, and thus have status and legal benefits the States accords other married couples.

In Washington State, the Gov is getting ready to legalize same sex marriage. However, I am wondering why the Church is not screaming fowl at the top of their collective lungs? The first amendment says... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It seems to this citizen that the States ARE making laws that impinge upon religion and that encumber the free exercise thereof. In my religious tradition marriage is a Sacrament between a man and a woman... which means that marriage is a holy covenant, whereby a man and woman are joined together as one, to live thereafter in the holy state of matrimony. Our Lord Jesus, even went so far as to say... "What God has joined together, let not man rend asunder."

Even so, Christians in America sat idly by as various State governments passed legislation allowing for no-fault divorce, and now they are sitting around twiddling their thumbs while the State redefines marriage to mean that any two people... not necessarily of the opposite sex, can get married in this state by any authorized representative of the State.

Am I the only Christian having a problem with the State redefining marriage, a Sacrament of the Church, and dictating to us, who can get married, and who we much regard as married? I am sure most Christians would pull their hair out if the State were to pass legislation mandating exactly who Churches allow or disallow as communicates. In my opinion, the State has no business telling the Church, who they allow to partake of the Eucharist, and who they regard as unfit. Most Churches I am familiar with allow all baptized believers to partake of Communion, others only allow the members of their respective Church or denomination.

What would you think if the State decided that it is a discriminary hateful practice to exclude anyone from the Eucharist? And whose to say that they won't someday... they are telling us today that marriage is no longer going to be recognized by the State as being between a man and a woman!

Here is my solution... tell me what you think.

1) I think the State should get out of the marriage business altogether and recognize it as a Christian sacrament of Christ and the Church.

2) I think the Church should take back marriage and resist any further State entanglements.

3) I think the State should institute Civil Unions, and make such Unions according to their present designs for marriage... namely being open to any two people, regardless of their sexual identity, and being subject to divorce for any reason.

4) Thereafter, the State will recognize marriage between heterosexual couples only for those who applied for the legal status accorded to Civil Unions.

~ Theophilus

Thing is, some Christians want to pick and choose.  Yesterday, my priest had a great one-liner:

"There are some prominent people out there who say they oppose gay marriage.  The problem is, they seem to want to define marriage as a union between one man and a series of progressively younger women."

In any case:

Marriage is a Sacrament (in some religions), but it is also the primary form of social organization in our society.  There is thus nothing wrong with the state setting laws as regards marriage, as it applies to the laws of the state in general. For example, if you have different tax codes, or inheritance or estate laws,  for married and single people, you are already in the business of defining exactly what constitutes a marriage. 

For the state to get out of the marriage business, it would have to rewrite every law which refers to the married condition.  That there are people who think that state should never have gotten into the business at all does not make this effort any easier, or more palatable to most people.  But it is one path forward, albeit one which has little chance of happening.

Constitutionally, the state cannot of course enforce "Christian marriage" as such.   Neither can it force any religious group to perform marriages contrary to the values of the particular group.  But it can refuse to recognize marriages which are contrary to civil law (ironically, in many states this might actually apply now to same-sex marriages).  This also implies the need for some mechanism for non-religious marriage (judge or the like) for people who are not religious.

That being said, if the state is in the marriage business, it can define marriage (as the primary form of social organization) in any way it sees fit according to the appropriate legislative process, subject to other laws of the land.  So in fact it could adopt pro forma the "Christian" definition, and this has, generally, been what has happened until recently (the issue as to whether excluding same-sex couples violates the constitution's equal protection clause is obviously contentious and will need to be settled either by the courts or by specific amendment to the Constitution).  But by this means, the state could just as easily allow same-sex marriage, or allow divorce and remarriage.

At the end of the day, religious people can and should  take marriage as they believe appropriate to their faith.  It is, in this sense, between them, their partner, and their God; whether or not the government recognizes or prohibits such a union; and so long as they do not expect civil benefits from such a union if the union is not recognizes civilly.

I agree with you that in a larger sense society has devalued marriage over the last few decades, but I think this has little to do with anything the government has done or not done. You want to assess blame, it goes mostly to the media.  I find it ironic, perhaps, that in an age where cohabitation has become common and maybe one third of hetrosexual marriages end in divorce-  gay couples are fighting so hard for the opportunity to marry.

For Christians, the message is: if you value marriage, live that way, before you try to tell others how to live.  Going back to my intro- there are all too many people around these days talking too much and setting a miserable Christian example.

Theo you say, In Washington State, the Gov is getting ready to legalize same sex marriage. However, I am wondering why the Church is not screaming fowl at the top of their collective lungs? The first amendment says... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

and then turn right around and say, I think the State should get out of the marriage business altogether and recognize it as a Christian sacrament of Christ and the Church.

Congress has made no law requiring Churches to marry anyone. I believe that churches have the right to marry or to deny marriage to members for their own congregation, but "the church" has no right and should never have the right to deny others (outside their congregation, denomination, body, etc.) the right to marry.

Merop:

Just a heads-up that debate of same-sex marriage is off-topic for this forum (and any forum except the faith and homosexuality forums, the Gay Community Forum, and Sexual Orientation Discussion).

As a rule I do not engage in conversations with homosexuals or lesbians about any of their particular issues; which is why I never post on those forums. I am, however, very interested in talking about social issues like marriage, for example, with other Christians, which is why I post threads on this forum from time to time. Marriage is a Christian Sacrament and has been for 2000 years, but now that our Government is leading the charge to destroy it, and redefine it, and twist it into something it has never been... I think it is high time Christian people start talking about it.

That said, we'll leave this thread up for now because it raises good questions beyond gay marriage.  But any posts debating gay marriage will be removed.

And I thank you for that, gay marriage is not the intended subject of this thread, traditional marriage and its survival is what this thread is about. I've made several suggestions as to how I think Christians should proceed in the quest to preserve the fundamental basis for Western Civilization - heterosexual based monogamy. I am not surprised some people disagree with my ideas, I am definitely swimming upstream and against the current of thought in America's Media.

Jesus believed in marriage between one man and one woman. > Matt 19:4-6 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'  and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?  So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

Notice how Jesus said that, "they are no longer two but one flesh." One man joined to One woman. One husband and one wife... that is what He taught marriage is all about. And marriage has been considered a sacrament in Christianity for nearly 2000 years. The fact that Protestants do not see marriage as one of seven sacraments does not matter one wit, many don't believe in any sacraments. Even so, Protestants pretty much believe in the sanctity of marriage just as much as Catholic and Orthodox Churches. In most Protestant Churches, marriage is deemed a divinely sanctioned institution and the marriage ceremony is considered a holy ordinance.

I am a Bible teacher, not a history major, but even I know something of European history and American history. And the fact is, that Christianity in one form or another, has been the dominant religion in Europe and America for a very long time... and America inherited many traditions from our European forbearers. And among those traditions was a belief in monogamous matrimony, so much so, that during the mid 1800s the United States Calvary subjugated the Mormon people of the Utah Territory and forced them to abandon polygamy and return to monogamy. The Government of this nations so identified with the Christian definition of marriage, that they forced the Mormon settlers of Utah and indeed the population of entire USA, to forsake polygamy, even to the point of putting away their additional wives.

However, things changed in America; the Government has been thoroughly secularized and separated from Christian influences, to the point that they can be more than unsympathetic to Bible believing Christians and their interests... if you need proof for that look no further than Roe Vs Wade, and all the State and Federal legislation that has been passed over the last 30 years to sustain the interests of the "Prochoice minority" in America.   

So I asked the question... What should we Christians do, now that America.gov, instead of protecting our belief in marriage, is actively gutting the law governing marriage and undermining our traditional standing in Society? My solution is - we should go on the offensive and take marriage back. But not through the force of law, as in reaffirming that marriage is only for monogamous heterosexual couples, but through our constitutional freedom of religion and the right to exercise that unencumbered by hostile legislation, media mockers and slanderers and the general body politic.

If marriage is a Sacrament, why do we recognize the right of State officials, like judges to marry anyone? Since when did God give secular judges and military officers the authority to marry anyone? Side note: I was married by a Justice of the Peace - 32 years ago. I think we are so conditioned to accept the actions of those in authority over us, that we seldom question how God sees the things they do. I certainly do not believe that those in authority today seriously seek the will of God, or see the decisions they make for the rest of us, to be the revealed will of God.

Therefore, speaking for myself, I think the Christian thing to do is plead with the State to stop meddling with marriage, and get out of the marriage business altogether. Leave marriage for the Church, and in its place, establish Civil Unions. Design Civil Unions to bestow similar benefits and legal status to everyone joined together by such unions... this would be far easier to do than to rewrite all the laws that govern marriage to accommodate same sex couples... not to mention avoid State entanglements with religious freedom.

There, I think I reargued my case... now I will give some attention to your responses.

~ Theophilus