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Switch to Forum Live View Sometimes, there ARE positive outcomes
3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 1:06PM #41
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833

Oct 27, 2011 -- 12:06PM, Erey wrote:


 Dot, you really don't care about trangender kids, you just want to tell everyone else how bad they are. 




I "want to tell everyone else how bad they are"?????


ROFLOL


That is the single most idiotic statement I've ever seen you make, Erey.


You are truly amazing!


:::::: dissolves in laughter at the realization that so very many other people will see how truly nonsensical and idiotic that entire statement is, particularly that I don't care about trans kids ::::::::::


Gee, I wonder who stole my password and started this thread entitled "Sometimes, there ARE positive outcomes"?? Dang, that must be what happened.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 1:06PM #42
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Oct 27, 2011 -- 12:06PM, Erey wrote:


Oct 27, 2011 -- 11:36AM, DotNotInOz wrote:


Erey insists that I never alluded to the necessity for deciding when a child is developmentally ready for a more detailed explanation and when a quite general one is better to avoid upsetting a child too immature to grasp the idea as yet. And of course, I wouldn't have because I've never had children.


Not true, Erey, decidedly not true as is clear from the following:


From my posting #18:


You answer their questions as straightforwardly as possible given the child's age and answer simply enough that the child can understand, simplifying more as necessary.


And from my posting #27,


"Age appropriate" includes allowing for a child's being developmentally unable to understand a concept as yet if that proves to be the case. And developmental levels vary from one child to another of the same age, as any parent or teacher knows, so you feel your way slowly and carefully when explaining such things until you reach a point where it seems that the child simply can't grasp the concept, if that occurs.


How interesting! I said way back when that you gear an explanation to the child's developmental stage and proceed if you consider the child to be reacting in a manner that indicates receptiveness without upset.


Logically, that would also mean postponing anything but a very simple answer until later if you know your child well enough to realize that anything more detailed would confuse or upset the child.


I provide posting numbers for reference, and since both postings have been quoted by other people, there will be no question of my possibly having edited them to conform with what I reproduce here.


So, once again, Erey misrepresents what was actually said.




 


Dot, you really don't care about trangender kids, you just want to tell everyone else how bad they are.  I took a risk when I mentioned my daughter.  I thought her experience was relevant to the conversation.  If you could have seen how the idea just did not fit into the world as she knew it, perhaps then you would be less likely to judge and condem others who are not on board with transgender issues. 


But you are not interested in empathizing with others, you are only interested in condemnation. 




Oh, for pete's sake, get over the emotionalsim.


This is a sticky wicket. One can have empathy without becoming emotionally involved. We learn, grow and adjust to new considerations.



 

discuss catholicism
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 1:20PM #43
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Oct 27, 2011 -- 1:06PM, DotNotInOz wrote:


Oct 27, 2011 -- 12:06PM, Erey wrote:


 Dot, you really don't care about trangender kids, you just want to tell everyone else how bad they are. 




I "want to tell everyone else how bad they are"?????


ROFLOL


That is the single most idiotic statement I've ever seen you make, Erey.


You are truly amazing!


:::::: dissolves in laughter at the realization that so very many other people will see how truly nonsensical and idiotic that entire statement is, particularly that I don't care about trans kids ::::::::::


Gee, I wonder who stole my password and started this thread entitled "Sometimes, there ARE positive outcomes"?? Dang, that must be what happened.





Is it?  You started out well enough.  The GS group decided to let a transgendered kid join.  That is interesting and I  think relevant. 


But then you launch into this crazy idea that if only adults would say the magic words there would never be any akwardness around transgender.  This is not the case.    That the only reason there is any issues with including transgendered kids is becuse the parents are clearly bad/ "spooky" people. 


 


well Dot, right there you show your true motives.  More intereseted in bashing than creating empathy. 


There are no magic words that you can say that just takes away the akwardness.  That is only done through SUPPORT (not your condemnation) understanding and in the case of something most people don't have experience with - actuall experience and exposure. 


There are no magic words that you can say to a young child to make it seem OK that a boy can just become a girl. There are no magic words you can say to a middle school girl that they need to change clothes in front of someone with a penis and that this is OK.  There are no magic words for this kind of thing. 


You don't just go prattling on about gender identity and everyone feels OK about it because your words were magic. 


If you really care you don't condem, you listen to the concerns, you explain as best you can, you try to develop understanding - not condemnation.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 1:26PM #44
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833

Oct 27, 2011 -- 1:20PM, Erey wrote:


Is it?  You started out well enough.  The GS group decided to let a transgendered kid join.  That is interesting and I  think relevant.



Great! You got this correct. I thought it was interesting and commendable. 


But then you launch into this crazy idea that if only adults would say the magic words there would never be any akwardness around transgender.  This is not the case.    That the only reason there is any issues with including transgendered kids is becuse the parents are clearly bad/ "spooky" people.



Over-simplification, reduction to the absurd and another misrepresentation of what I said which was that if adults don't ACT SPOOKY and indicate by their obvious discomfort talking about transgenderism that it's an embarrassing topic then kids won't think it is. 


More of the same.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 1:36PM #45
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Oct 27, 2011 -- 1:26PM, DotNotInOz wrote:


Oct 27, 2011 -- 1:20PM, Erey wrote:


Is it?  You started out well enough.  The GS group decided to let a transgendered kid join.  That is interesting and I  think relevant.



Great! You got this correct. I thought it was interesting and commendable. 


But then you launch into this crazy idea that if only adults would say the magic words there would never be any akwardness around transgender.  This is not the case.    That the only reason there is any issues with including transgendered kids is becuse the parents are clearly bad/ "spooky" people.



Over-simplification, reduction to the absurd and another misrepresentation of what I said which was that if adults don't ACT SPOOKY and indicate by their obvious discomfort talking about transgenderism that it's an embarrassing topic then kids won't think it is. 


More of the same.




Well I am here to tell you I said NOTHING about transgender to my daughter.  She witnessed a boy ademate about being a girl - and it did not sit well with her.  She did not witness any groupings of parents concerned about the child.  I did not even know about it untill she brought it to my attention and I was very active in the school


There were NO SPOOKY ADULTS in this situation.  There was no display of adult discomfort.  In my case i did not even know about it.


 


And I can be as casual as I know how to be, and I can even believe it is no big deal.  But you try telling a bunch of girls that they have to share a changing room and bathrooms with someone who is transgendered and see how natural and uncomplicated the acceptance is.  It won't be, you are going to have a room full of freaked out girls and one less than included transgender kid. 


If you truly care you will stop condeming and encourage compassion and yes....   troubleshooting.  These situations will demand some troubleshooting.  Which is possible and easier if you come from a place of compassion and not just trying to bash people over the head. 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 3:20PM #46
REteach
Posts: 14,833

Oct 27, 2011 -- 12:54PM, Girlchristian wrote:

You're an adult. What about in the example Templar gave about showers in the school gym, you expect a teenage girl to ignore her comfort level with having a biological teenage boy in the same showers because he identifies as a girl? That's a little unfair and not realistic. Isn't the better answer to have separate showers so that all parties feel comfortable? Most women would balk at a biological male sharing the same bathroom as them even if that person identifies as a female.



My sister managed to have her period nonstop throughout high school (per her report to the gym teacher anyway) and never took a group shower.


How is this any different really than taking a group shower with someone who is gay? 


There are cultures for whom nudity just isn't that big a deal. We make it one.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 3:23PM #47
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,395

Oct 27, 2011 -- 3:20PM, REteach wrote:


Oct 27, 2011 -- 12:54PM, Girlchristian wrote:

You're an adult. What about in the example Templar gave about showers in the school gym, you expect a teenage girl to ignore her comfort level with having a biological teenage boy in the same showers because he identifies as a girl? That's a little unfair and not realistic. Isn't the better answer to have separate showers so that all parties feel comfortable? Most women would balk at a biological male sharing the same bathroom as them even if that person identifies as a female.



My sister managed to have her period nonstop throughout high school (per her report to the gym teacher anyway) and never took a group shower.


How is this any different really than taking a group shower with someone who is gay? 


There are cultures for whom nudity just isn't that big a deal. We make it one.




In my school, if you didn't take a group shower, you didn't take a shower. Some schools are better equipped than others.

Well, the obvious answer is that someone who is gay is the same sex. A boy taking a shower with girls is not the same or a girl taking showers with boys is not the same. Do you not think you may be demanding far too much of teenagers? The teenage years, puberty, boy/girl relationships, etc... are already pretty damn difficult.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 3:39PM #48
Erey
Posts: 18,940

I think if you are truly thinking about a transgendered kid, a kid with unchanged parts, etc.  I think you should 1. present that kid as the gender they claim to be.  But I think you should just forgo the whole locker-room senario.  Unless there are alot of very private places and closed stalls in that particular lockerroom it should just be taken out.


I am talking about your average school.  There might be a school out there that can deal with it better.


 


I am thinking for the average school, mainstream population just don't do it.  Don't send that kid to the locker room.  Do we really want to explain to a group of parents why the school is allowing a kid with a penis in the girls lockeroom?  Is that showing compasion to the trangendered kid?  Is that showing compassion to the parents?


Why put a kid through all that? I went k-12 like everyone else and I probably took 3 showers during all those years.  The only time was the swiming section of the PE class where there was alot of complete nudity in the changing room.  I say don't put the transgendered kid in the swiming section, let the kid do something else or let the kid change in a different bathroom. 


 


I think your average bathroom situation is workable, there are stalls and some privacy.  I don't see naked genitalia very often in bathrooms. 


Sometime you just do what is best for everyone

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 4:30PM #49
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

I wont take a shower with anyone else, regardless of orientation or gender. That is NOT what this is about.


Do girl shouts shower together?


This is about allowing someone to be who they are.


A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2011 - 4:48PM #50
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Oct 27, 2011 -- 4:30PM, mainecaptain wrote:


I wont take a shower with anyone else, regardless of orientation or gender. That is NOT what this is about.


Do girl shouts shower together?


This is about allowing someone to be who they are.





Alot of these shower facilities are just a series of shower heads sticking out of the wall, no particians or curtains.


Which is sort of why most of the time the showers are not used. 

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