OK so you are serious that a gay kid reading this thread is in danger of commiting suicide because my rejection of the idea that sexuality is not ALLWAYS etched in stone? Seriously?
Then I hope whomever is the moderator will delete this thread post-haste. And in future threads should be limited to an "ask the expert" forum and real discussion should be very limited becasue I certainly don't want to be responsible for a gay kid commiting suicide.
After all the bullshit on this thread it comes down to you ademately stating that gay kids can't handle a discussion on sexual orientation?
PLEASE MODERATORS DELETE THIS BOARD - IT IS TOO DANGEROUS!!!
I guess the pediatricians who belong to AAP are pretty stupid:
STUDY LINKS SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT TO INCREASED RISK FOR SUICIDE ATTEMPTS IN LESBIAN, GAY, AND BISEXUAL YOUTH
Previous studies have indicated that lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) youth have higher rates of suicide attempts than heterosexual youth. The study, “The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Youth,” in the May issue of Pediatrics (published online April 18), begins to explain why these disparities exist. A total of 31,852 students in 11th grade in Oregon completed the Oregon Healthy Teens survey in 2006-2008. The study author created a composite index of the social environment in 34 counties and found that the risk of suicide attempts among LGB youth living in counties that were less supportive of homosexuality was 20 percent higher than LGB youth living in supportive counties. Many of the aspects of the social environment that were included in the measure (i.e., presence of gay-straight alliances, anti-bullying policies, and anti-discrimination policies) can be addressed through implementing school-level policies that create supportive and inclusive environments. Results suggest that these school-level policies will not only decrease suicide attempts among LGB youth, but also among heterosexual youth.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
I have in the past posted information about neurodevelopment from PubMed. However, this link from Wiki does a nice job of describing many of the neurobiological findings related to sexual orientation. As many of us know, changing an orientation isn't so much a choice as an impossibility. One can change one's behavior but as the research study with the penile plethysmometers showed, the body sometimes has a mind of its own.
Reteach
Thank you for that link!! I was aware of most of the studies, but this makes a really convenient all-in-one (or most-in-one) bookmark! I'm currently rebuilding all of my bookmarks that were lost in a crash - it happened a while ago, I'm just now starting to get motivated to tracking all the sites down. Since my stroke, I seem to be a bit slower getting a start on projects for some reason.
Most people do not see the world as it is. They see it as they are.
I am losing interest and I am certainly NOT interested in discussing anything with Reteach most especialy about this subject. She can go and reteach somebody else as far as I am concerned.
For me my interest is in pre-concieved notions of human nature and the plasticity of nature. Not specificaly sexuality. I am also interested in how ideas and even science becomes political. Which brings me to this topic. It is not sexuality itself that grabs my attention lately.
We are at an impasse which is fine with me, I don't mind impasses. I just would prefer to get to this place without alot of bullying and judgemental nonsense. You would think a segment of the population that had to endure alot of bullying and hostility would be a bit cooler.
You seem to believe in inflexible sexuality, I disagree. I do wonder if your irresoluteness on the topic has perhaps something to do with defending an argument.
We don't have to agree and we are not going to agree. Tomorrow there could be a new study published that backs up my world-view, I don't think that will matter here. They could discover tomorrow the elusive gay gene and it still would not kill my understanding of the world.
I am happy to agree to disagree until the next time a moderator's lack of judgement transfers a thread of mine to this board.
My point is - change in orientation is not something one can willfully change.
If you want to see why people react that way when people suggest that willful change is possible, read this thread: Our Stories
free,
Here is a good quote for you from The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated, "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[31] The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[32] "[F]or some ["people"] the focus of sexual interest will shift at various points through the life span..."[33] A community may change over time.[34] In a joint statement with other major American medical, psychology, educator, and religious organizations, the APA says that "different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual".[35] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[3
Sounds to me like what I have been saying in this thread. What you identify with as a teenager might not be the same thing as a young adult or a mature adult. So a kid might feel he is gay and form gay relationships and latter as a young man might not feel the same way. Sounds to me like sexuality is not etched in stone at birth - for everybody anyway.
Willful is not the term I would use in regards to this kind of change. It is not something I would advise people change like a habit like quitting smoking or making a radical change to an established diet. Like going from eating a rich diet of fast food to radicaly switching to a raw food diet based on will alone.
In my thinking it is more a function of perhaps they are moving in that different sexual orientation more organicaly. A person probably would not even need to "change" if society was not so big on labeling people based on sexual orientation. I think so often in our society people feel compelled to declare themselves as a sexual orientation and in other societies this kind of thing does not really occur. The point is the idea of changing a sexual orientation or tendancy as the case may be is not a thing people had to worry about. I believe alot of our societal labeling as gay, hetersexual and bisexual is artificial.
I know the reeducation programs can be terrible, I would not advocate those groups. If someone is confused about their sexuality the most I would advise is some gentle therapy to work out their thoughts. Never a program to FORCE a preference. However the emotional issues around changing is not the point on this thread as much as the ABILITY to do so.
Here is a good quote for you from The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated, "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[31] The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[32] "[F]or some ["people"] the focus of sexual interest will shift at various points through the life span..."[33] A community may change over time.[34] In a joint statement with other major American medical, psychology, educator, and religious organizations, the APA says that "different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual".[35] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[3
Sounds to me like what I have been saying in this thread. What you identify with as a teenager might not be the same thing as a young adult or a mature adult. So a kid might feel he is gay and form gay relationships and latter as a young man might not feel the same way. Sounds to me like sexuality is not etched in stone at birth - for everybody anyway.
Willful is not the term I would use in regards to this kind of change. It is not something I would advise people change like a habit like quitting smoking or making a radical change to an established diet. Like going from eating a rich diet of fast food to radicaly switching to a raw food diet based on will alone.
In my thinking it is more a function of perhaps they are moving in that different sexual orientation more organicaly. A person probably would not even need to "change" if society was not so big on labeling people based on sexual orientation. I think so often in our society people feel compelled to declare themselves as a sexual orientation and in other societies this kind of thing does not really occur. The point is the idea of changing a sexual orientation or tendancy as the case may be is not a thing people had to worry about. I believe alot of our societal labeling as gay, hetersexual and bisexual is artificial.
I know the reeducation programs can be terrible, I would not advocate those groups. If someone is confused about their sexuality the most I would advise is some gentle therapy to work out their thoughts. Never a program to FORCE a preference. However the emotional issues around changing is not the point on this thread as much as the ABILITY to do so.
Then we have been talking about 2 different things. Stephen Bennett - claims he chose to be straight. "Ex-gays" claim the change was through will. Basically saying to gay youth who are struggling: "your faith isn't as strong as mine" or "God loves me more than he loves you." He also claims he was gay because of his upbringing, which is totally outdated junk psychology. The only places that still use those theories are reparative therapy organizations.
What I have been talking about the entire time is that people cannot chose to change their orientation. I believe it may be possible, for a small minority, there could possibly be a shift in physiology that may cause a slight shift in orientation (not from straight to gay or gay to straight, but a slight move in bisexuality or even a shift from totally gay to slight bisexuality.
But that's not what I've been discussing. If someone is unhappy being gay - they need to work at self acceptance, that is possible; changing their orientation by will is not.
Below are some quotes from the APA website. The source is linked below.
"efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public. However, such efforts have serious potential to harm young people because they present the view that the sexual orientation of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth is a mental illness or disorder, and they often frame the inability to change one’s sexual orientation as a personal and moral failure."
"Furthermore, anecdotal reports of “cures” are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm."
"In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm."
"The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior''
- American Academy of Pediatrics - American Association of School Administrators - American Counseling Association - American Federation of Teachers - American Psychological Association - American School Counselor Association - American School Health Association - Interfaith Alliance Foundation - National Association of School Psychologists - National Association of Secondary School Principals - National Association of Social Workers - National Education Association - School Social Work Association of America
As I said, NO real evidence that ANYONE has WILLFULLY changed - EVER. And when many kids hear they can - they want to believe and they do believe they can. After all, their parents tell them it's possible, their church tells them it's possible, some friends tell them it's possible, they hear people discussing it who say it's possible and they WANT it to be possible.
I know you said that you don’t recommend reparative therapy organizations, but rather, a therapist to help. Well, ethical therapists (according to that APA) will help them accept themselves, but will not work with them to change. And if they can’t get what they want from a therapist, where do you think they will turn? [From the same source listed above. “… the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”]
---------------------
I used to believe that it would be absolutely fantastic if people really had control over their orientation. On the surface, it seems like it would prevent so many tragic deaths – be they suicides or the result of gay-bashings. And it would prevent approximately 25% of gay youth from Conservative Christian families from being thrown out on the street. But the fact is, sexual orientation does not cause any of those problems, bigotry does. To change something that, in reality, is a neutral trait, to appease bigots is, IMO morally wrong. The bigotry needs to be eradicated. People need to come to terms with who they are, period; no matter what minority they belong to. In addition, don’t you think if people could, really change their orientation, the bigotry would be much worse? I think there would be many more bashings and a much higher percentage of Christian gay youth would be homeless. If people actually could chose their orientation, then those who were not self-hating and those who did come to accept who they were, would be even more of a target for those who are bigoted against GLBTs.
Edited from original:
formatting added typos corrected link added some wording and grammar corrected
Most people do not see the world as it is. They see it as they are.
As I moved from being homophobic to being accepting, I went through a stage of "hey, whatever they want to do in their own rooms is OK, just don't flaunt it." One day I was walking downtown, enjoying holding my husband's hand, and it dawned on me I was denying others the right a simple but deep pleasure that I enjoyed immensely.
This whole discussion strikes me in a similar way. Nobody has ever suggested that therapy should be available for me if I want to become gay. Why? Because there is an underlying assumption that straight is better. The underlying message behind changing to become straight without equal emphasis on changing to become gay sends a clear message that being gay is at best second best. Kind of like flesh colored bandaids being white flesh. Or the idea that flesh color is the color of a white person's skin. We underwent a change in language a while back so it didn't have to sound like every important job had to be a man's job.
Ultimately, debate on whether or not therapy works to make people straight relies on the assumption that being straight is better. I cannot see how that can be anything but hurtful and insulting to those who are gay.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
As I moved from being homophobic to being accepting, I went through a stage of "hey, whatever they want to do in their own rooms is OK, just don't flaunt it." One day I was walking downtown, enjoying holding my husband's hand, and it dawned on me I was denying others the right a simple but deep pleasure that I enjoyed immensely.
This whole discussion strikes me in a similar way. Nobody has ever suggested that therapy should be available for me if I want to become gay. Why? Because there is an underlying assumption that straight is better. The underlying message behind changing to become straight without equal emphasis on changing to become gay sends a clear message that being gay is at best second best. Kind of like flesh colored bandaids being white flesh. Or the idea that flesh color is the color of a white person's skin. We underwent a change in language a while back so it didn't have to sound like every important job had to be a man's job.
Ultimately, debate on whether or not therapy works to make people straight relies on the assumption that being straight is better. I cannot see how that can be anything but hurtful and insulting to those who are gay.
I was trying to say something like that a while back, but you have done a much better job. I do not understand the problem. I do not think staright is superior to gay. We are what we are supposed to be. And we should not be harming others.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato.. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Here is a good quote for you from The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated, "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[31] The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[32] "[F]or some ["people"] the focus of sexual interest will shift at various points through the life span..."[33] A community may change over time.[34] In a joint statement with other major American medical, psychology, educator, and religious organizations, the APA says that "different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual".[35] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[3
Sounds to me like what I have been saying in this thread. What you identify with as a teenager might not be the same thing as a young adult or a mature adult. So a kid might feel he is gay and form gay relationships and latter as a young man might not feel the same way. Sounds to me like sexuality is not etched in stone at birth - for everybody anyway.
Willful is not the term I would use in regards to this kind of change. It is not something I would advise people change like a habit like quitting smoking or making a radical change to an established diet. Like going from eating a rich diet of fast food to radicaly switching to a raw food diet based on will alone.
In my thinking it is more a function of perhaps they are moving in that different sexual orientation more organicaly. A person probably would not even need to "change" if society was not so big on labeling people based on sexual orientation. I think so often in our society people feel compelled to declare themselves as a sexual orientation and in other societies this kind of thing does not really occur. The point is the idea of changing a sexual orientation or tendancy as the case may be is not a thing people had to worry about. I believe alot of our societal labeling as gay, hetersexual and bisexual is artificial.
I know the reeducation programs can be terrible, I would not advocate those groups. If someone is confused about their sexuality the most I would advise is some gentle therapy to work out their thoughts. Never a program to FORCE a preference. However the emotional issues around changing is not the point on this thread as much as the ABILITY to do so.
Then we have been talking about 2 different things. Stephen Bennett - claims he chose to be straight. "Ex-gays" claim the change was through will. Basically saying to gay youth who are struggling: "your faith isn't as strong as mine" or "God loves me more than he loves you." He also claims he was gay because of his upbringing, which is totally outdated junk psychology. The only places that still use those theories are reparative therapy organizations.
What I have been talking about the entire time is that people cannot chose to change their orientation. I believe it may be possible, for a small minority, there could possibly be a shift in physiology that may cause a slight shift in orientation (not from straight to gay or gay to straight, but a slight move in bisexuality or even a shift from totally gay to slight bisexuality.
But that's not what I've been discussing. If someone is unhappy being gay - they need to work at self acceptance, that is possible; changing their orientation by will is not.
Below are some quotes from the APA website. The source is linked below.
"efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public. However, such efforts have serious potential to harm young people because they present the view that the sexual orientation of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth is a mental illness or disorder, and they often frame the inability to change one’s sexual orientation as a personal and moral failure."
"Furthermore, anecdotal reports of “cures” are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm."
"In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm."
"The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior''
- American Academy of Pediatrics - American Association of School Administrators - American Counseling Association - American Federation of Teachers - American Psychological Association - American School Counselor Association - American School Health Association - Interfaith Alliance Foundation - National Association of School Psychologists - National Association of Secondary School Principals - National Association of Social Workers - National Education Association - School Social Work Association of America
As I said, NO real evidence that ANYONE has WILLFULLY changed - EVER. And when many kids hear they can - they want to believe and they do believe they can. After all, their parents tell them it's possible, their church tells them it's possible, some friends tell them it's possible, they hear people discussing it who say it's possible and they WANT it to be possible.
I know you said that you don’t recommend reparative therapy organizations, but rather, a therapist to help. Well, ethical therapists (according to that APA) will help them accept themselves, but will not work with them to change. And if they can’t get what they want from a therapist, where do you think they will turn? [From the same source listed above. “… the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”]
---------------------
I used to believe that it would be absolutely fantastic if people really had control over their orientation. On the surface, it seems like it would prevent so many tragic deaths – be they suicides or the result of gay-bashings. And it would prevent approximately 25% of gay youth from Conservative Christian families from being thrown out on the street. But the fact is, sexual orientation does not cause any of those problems, bigotry does. To change something that, in reality, is a neutral trait, to appease bigots is, IMO morally wrong. The bigotry needs to be eradicated. People need to come to terms with who they are, period; no matter what minority they belong to. In addition, don’t you think if people could, really change their orientation, the bigotry would be much worse? I think there would be many more bashings and a much higher percentage of Christian gay youth would be homeless. If people actually could chose their orientation, then those who were not self-hating and those who did come to accept who they were, would be even more of a target for those who are bigoted against GLBTs.
Edited from original:
formatting added typos corrected link added some wording and grammar corrected
Free,
I wanted to take a break from the thread, I am sure you can relate.
Maybe we are off talking about more than one thing? HEre is the thing, like less than two weeeks ago the "scientists" declared that there IS such a thing as a bisexual man. See about two weeks ago the wisdom was that there really was no such a thing as a TRUE bisexual man or if there were such a thing they were so rare as to be statisticaly irrelevant. A bisexual man was probably just a gay man. YOu probably noticed some of the same articles out there too. If I am shocking you I can probably find a link or two for you.
They had done these studies where they took all these men who claimed to be bisexual and hooked sensors up to their penises and showed different kinds of porn to see what truly got them arroused (fun study). They discoverd that the "bisexual men" did not have bisexual penises, meaning you probably guessed they only went up for the gay male porn.
All this came out just a very, very short time ago - they discovered they were doing the studyies WRONG and now they have to thier surprise learned that there indeed is such a thing as a TRUE bisexual male complete with bisexual penises.
This as you can imagine is highly validating to men who have been declaring all along that they are bisexual even though everyone thinks they are being phony about it. Lots of follow up articles where bisexual men describe how they were treated poorly by people who felt they were deluded posers or insincere/untrustworthy jerks. Evidentaly people went along with the scientists and choose to believe that men who claim to be bisexual are deluded or insincere.
So in light of all this I find the people discussing sexuality on this thread in such absolute terms to be well, a bit arrogant. We DONT seem to have it all figured out, not by a long shot. And the thing is we don't even know enough to know what we don't know. Which is fine, discovery is a journey right? But I still don't get the ugly hostility here, just because you think you know it all and I don't think you do I am reduced to some sort of homophobe? YOu are probably a nice person to dialouge with on other boards.
Here is a good quote for you from The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated, "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[31] The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[32] "[F]or some ["people"] the focus of sexual interest will shift at various points through the life span..."[33] A community may change over time.[34] In a joint statement with other major American medical, psychology, educator, and religious organizations, the APA says that "different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual".[35] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[3
Sounds to me like what I have been saying in this thread. What you identify with as a teenager might not be the same thing as a young adult or a mature adult. So a kid might feel he is gay and form gay relationships and latter as a young man might not feel the same way. Sounds to me like sexuality is not etched in stone at birth - for everybody anyway.
Willful is not the term I would use in regards to this kind of change. It is not something I would advise people change like a habit like quitting smoking or making a radical change to an established diet. Like going from eating a rich diet of fast food to radicaly switching to a raw food diet based on will alone.
In my thinking it is more a function of perhaps they are moving in that different sexual orientation more organicaly. A person probably would not even need to "change" if society was not so big on labeling people based on sexual orientation. I think so often in our society people feel compelled to declare themselves as a sexual orientation and in other societies this kind of thing does not really occur. The point is the idea of changing a sexual orientation or tendancy as the case may be is not a thing people had to worry about. I believe alot of our societal labeling as gay, hetersexual and bisexual is artificial.
I know the reeducation programs can be terrible, I would not advocate those groups. If someone is confused about their sexuality the most I would advise is some gentle therapy to work out their thoughts. Never a program to FORCE a preference. However the emotional issues around changing is not the point on this thread as much as the ABILITY to do so.
Then we have been talking about 2 different things. Stephen Bennett - claims he chose to be straight. "Ex-gays" claim the change was through will. Basically saying to gay youth who are struggling: "your faith isn't as strong as mine" or "God loves me more than he loves you." He also claims he was gay because of his upbringing, which is totally outdated junk psychology. The only places that still use those theories are reparative therapy organizations.
What I have been talking about the entire time is that people cannot chose to change their orientation. I believe it may be possible, for a small minority, there could possibly be a shift in physiology that may cause a slight shift in orientation (not from straight to gay or gay to straight, but a slight move in bisexuality or even a shift from totally gay to slight bisexuality.
But that's not what I've been discussing. If someone is unhappy being gay - they need to work at self acceptance, that is possible; changing their orientation by will is not.
Below are some quotes from the APA website. The source is linked below.
"efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public. However, such efforts have serious potential to harm young people because they present the view that the sexual orientation of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth is a mental illness or disorder, and they often frame the inability to change one’s sexual orientation as a personal and moral failure."
"Furthermore, anecdotal reports of “cures” are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm."
"In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm."
"The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior''
- American Academy of Pediatrics - American Association of School Administrators - American Counseling Association - American Federation of Teachers - American Psychological Association - American School Counselor Association - American School Health Association - Interfaith Alliance Foundation - National Association of School Psychologists - National Association of Secondary School Principals - National Association of Social Workers - National Education Association - School Social Work Association of America
As I said, NO real evidence that ANYONE has WILLFULLY changed - EVER. And when many kids hear they can - they want to believe and they do believe they can. After all, their parents tell them it's possible, their church tells them it's possible, some friends tell them it's possible, they hear people discussing it who say it's possible and they WANT it to be possible.
I know you said that you don’t recommend reparative therapy organizations, but rather, a therapist to help. Well, ethical therapists (according to that APA) will help them accept themselves, but will not work with them to change. And if they can’t get what they want from a therapist, where do you think they will turn? [From the same source listed above. “… the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”]
---------------------
I used to believe that it would be absolutely fantastic if people really had control over their orientation. On the surface, it seems like it would prevent so many tragic deaths – be they suicides or the result of gay-bashings. And it would prevent approximately 25% of gay youth from Conservative Christian families from being thrown out on the street. But the fact is, sexual orientation does not cause any of those problems, bigotry does. To change something that, in reality, is a neutral trait, to appease bigots is, IMO morally wrong. The bigotry needs to be eradicated. People need to come to terms with who they are, period; no matter what minority they belong to. In addition, don’t you think if people could, really change their orientation, the bigotry would be much worse? I think there would be many more bashings and a much higher percentage of Christian gay youth would be homeless. If people actually could chose their orientation, then those who were not self-hating and those who did come to accept who they were, would be even more of a target for those who are bigoted against GLBTs.
Edited from original:
formatting added typos corrected link added some wording and grammar corrected
Free,
I wanted to take a break from the thread, I am sure you can relate.
Maybe we are off talking about more than one thing? HEre is the thing, like less than two weeeks ago the "scientists" declared that there IS such a thing as a bisexual man. See about two weeks ago the wisdom was that there really was no such a thing as a TRUE bisexual man or if there were such a thing they were so rare as to be statisticaly irrelevant. A bisexual man was probably just a gay man. YOu probably noticed some of the same articles out there too. If I am shocking you I can probably find a link or two for you.
They had done these studies where they took all these men who claimed to be bisexual and hooked sensors up to their penises and showed different kinds of porn to see what truly got them arroused (fun study). They discoverd that the "bisexual men" did not have bisexual penises, meaning you probably guessed they only went up for the gay male porn.
All this came out just a very, very short time ago - they discovered they were doing the studyies WRONG and now they have to thier surprise learned that there indeed is such a thing as a TRUE bisexual male complete with bisexual penises.
This as you can imagine is highly validating to men who have been declaring all along that they are bisexual even though everyone thinks they are being phony about it. Lots of follow up articles where bisexual men describe how they were treated poorly by people who felt they were deluded posers or insincere/untrustworthy jerks. Evidentaly people went along with the scientists and choose to believe that men who claim to be bisexual are deluded or insincere.
So in light of all this I find the people discussing sexuality on this thread in such absolute terms to be well, a bit arrogant. We DONT seem to have it all figured out, not by a long shot. And the thing is we don't even know enough to know what we don't know. Which is fine, discovery is a journey right? But I still don't get the ugly hostility here, just because you think you know it all and I don't think you do I am reduced to some sort of homophobe? YOu are probably a nice person to dialouge with on other boards.
Do you read articles or headlines? The headline was sarcasm. The study done does not combate "wisdom" it combate STEROTYPES. The scientific community never denied bisexuality, society did. Just like society, at large, denies that sexual orientation is biological, and immutable and not a matter of choice or will.
Most people do not see the world as it is. They see it as they are.
Here is a good quote for you from The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has stated, "some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime".[31] The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[32] "[F]or some ["people"] the focus of sexual interest will shift at various points through the life span..."[33] A community may change over time.[34] In a joint statement with other major American medical, psychology, educator, and religious organizations, the APA says that "different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual".[35] A report from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health states, "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time".[3
Sounds to me like what I have been saying in this thread. What you identify with as a teenager might not be the same thing as a young adult or a mature adult. So a kid might feel he is gay and form gay relationships and latter as a young man might not feel the same way. Sounds to me like sexuality is not etched in stone at birth - for everybody anyway.
Willful is not the term I would use in regards to this kind of change. It is not something I would advise people change like a habit like quitting smoking or making a radical change to an established diet. Like going from eating a rich diet of fast food to radicaly switching to a raw food diet based on will alone.
In my thinking it is more a function of perhaps they are moving in that different sexual orientation more organicaly. A person probably would not even need to "change" if society was not so big on labeling people based on sexual orientation. I think so often in our society people feel compelled to declare themselves as a sexual orientation and in other societies this kind of thing does not really occur. The point is the idea of changing a sexual orientation or tendancy as the case may be is not a thing people had to worry about. I believe alot of our societal labeling as gay, hetersexual and bisexual is artificial.
I know the reeducation programs can be terrible, I would not advocate those groups. If someone is confused about their sexuality the most I would advise is some gentle therapy to work out their thoughts. Never a program to FORCE a preference. However the emotional issues around changing is not the point on this thread as much as the ABILITY to do so.
Then we have been talking about 2 different things. Stephen Bennett - claims he chose to be straight. "Ex-gays" claim the change was through will. Basically saying to gay youth who are struggling: "your faith isn't as strong as mine" or "God loves me more than he loves you." He also claims he was gay because of his upbringing, which is totally outdated junk psychology. The only places that still use those theories are reparative therapy organizations.
What I have been talking about the entire time is that people cannot chose to change their orientation. I believe it may be possible, for a small minority, there could possibly be a shift in physiology that may cause a slight shift in orientation (not from straight to gay or gay to straight, but a slight move in bisexuality or even a shift from totally gay to slight bisexuality.
But that's not what I've been discussing. If someone is unhappy being gay - they need to work at self acceptance, that is possible; changing their orientation by will is not.
Below are some quotes from the APA website. The source is linked below.
"efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public. However, such efforts have serious potential to harm young people because they present the view that the sexual orientation of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth is a mental illness or disorder, and they often frame the inability to change one’s sexual orientation as a personal and moral failure."
"Furthermore, anecdotal reports of “cures” are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm."
"In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm."
"The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior''
- American Academy of Pediatrics - American Association of School Administrators - American Counseling Association - American Federation of Teachers - American Psychological Association - American School Counselor Association - American School Health Association - Interfaith Alliance Foundation - National Association of School Psychologists - National Association of Secondary School Principals - National Association of Social Workers - National Education Association - School Social Work Association of America
As I said, NO real evidence that ANYONE has WILLFULLY changed - EVER. And when many kids hear they can - they want to believe and they do believe they can. After all, their parents tell them it's possible, their church tells them it's possible, some friends tell them it's possible, they hear people discussing it who say it's possible and they WANT it to be possible.
I know you said that you don’t recommend reparative therapy organizations, but rather, a therapist to help. Well, ethical therapists (according to that APA) will help them accept themselves, but will not work with them to change. And if they can’t get what they want from a therapist, where do you think they will turn? [From the same source listed above. “… the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”]
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I used to believe that it would be absolutely fantastic if people really had control over their orientation. On the surface, it seems like it would prevent so many tragic deaths – be they suicides or the result of gay-bashings. And it would prevent approximately 25% of gay youth from Conservative Christian families from being thrown out on the street. But the fact is, sexual orientation does not cause any of those problems, bigotry does. To change something that, in reality, is a neutral trait, to appease bigots is, IMO morally wrong. The bigotry needs to be eradicated. People need to come to terms with who they are, period; no matter what minority they belong to. In addition, don’t you think if people could, really change their orientation, the bigotry would be much worse? I think there would be many more bashings and a much higher percentage of Christian gay youth would be homeless. If people actually could chose their orientation, then those who were not self-hating and those who did come to accept who they were, would be even more of a target for those who are bigoted against GLBTs.
Edited from original:
formatting added typos corrected link added some wording and grammar corrected
Free,
I wanted to take a break from the thread, I am sure you can relate.
Maybe we are off talking about more than one thing? HEre is the thing, like less than two weeeks ago the "scientists" declared that there IS such a thing as a bisexual man. See about two weeks ago the wisdom was that there really was no such a thing as a TRUE bisexual man or if there were such a thing they were so rare as to be statisticaly irrelevant. A bisexual man was probably just a gay man. YOu probably noticed some of the same articles out there too. If I am shocking you I can probably find a link or two for you.
They had done these studies where they took all these men who claimed to be bisexual and hooked sensors up to their penises and showed different kinds of porn to see what truly got them arroused (fun study). They discoverd that the "bisexual men" did not have bisexual penises, meaning you probably guessed they only went up for the gay male porn.
All this came out just a very, very short time ago - they discovered they were doing the studyies WRONG and now they have to thier surprise learned that there indeed is such a thing as a TRUE bisexual male complete with bisexual penises.
This as you can imagine is highly validating to men who have been declaring all along that they are bisexual even though everyone thinks they are being phony about it. Lots of follow up articles where bisexual men describe how they were treated poorly by people who felt they were deluded posers or insincere/untrustworthy jerks. Evidentaly people went along with the scientists and choose to believe that men who claim to be bisexual are deluded or insincere.
So in light of all this I find the people discussing sexuality on this thread in such absolute terms to be well, a bit arrogant. We DONT seem to have it all figured out, not by a long shot. And the thing is we don't even know enough to know what we don't know. Which is fine, discovery is a journey right? But I still don't get the ugly hostility here, just because you think you know it all and I don't think you do I am reduced to some sort of homophobe? YOu are probably a nice person to dialouge with on other boards.
Do you read articles or headlines? The headline was sarcasm. The study done does not combate "wisdom" it combate STEROTYPES. The scientific community never denied bisexuality, society did. Just like society, at large, denies that sexual orientation is biological, and immutable and not a matter of choice or will.
Ummm, NO I am quite sure you are very wrong about this.
The SCIENTISTS DID declare bisexuality in men to be mostly an untruth - hence the more recent follow up study that over-rode the "findings". And according to penty of articles I read the homosexuality community tended to go along in lock step with it
The finding is not likely to surprise bisexuals, who have long asserted that attraction often is not limited to one sex. But for many years the question of bisexuality has bedeviled scientists. A widely publicized study published in 2005, also by researchers at Northwestern, reported that “with respect to sexual arousal and attraction, it remains to be shown that male bisexuality exists.”
That conclusion outraged bisexual men and women, who said it appeared to support a stereotype of bisexual men as closeted homosexuals.
I like what the bisexual lady in the article said:
Sexual arousal is a very complicated thing,” she said. “The real phenomenon in day-to-day life is extraordinarily messy and multifactorial.”
Especially the part about sexuality being MULTIFACTORIAL
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