| 2 years ago :: Dec 11, 2010 - 11:12PM #1 | |||||||||||||||||||
Homosexual Relationships In The Bible David and Jonathan
But The Bible Says It's Wrong!
An example is the genocide of Sodom. From Relegious Tolerance [.org]:
"What were the sins of Sodom according to other biblical passages:
A common procedure in biblical apologetics is to let the Bible interpret itself. Looking elsewhere in the Bible for references to Sodom may help us determine which of the four above interpretations is correct.
The interpretation of Genesis 19 as referring to a homosexual sin appears to have been created in the 11th century by the Italian ascetic St. Peter Damian. 3 Christian theologians generally accepted this explanation until recently. In fact, the English word sodomy, which popularly means either homosexual or heterosexual anal intercourse, was derived from the name of the city. The term "sodomy" is also used in some ancient laws to refer to a variety of sexual behaviors in addition to heterosexual intercourse. Some of these laws are still on the books although the U.S. Supreme Court declared them unconstitutional in 2003-JUN as part of its Lawrence v. Texas decision.
Opinion among most liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish theologians has now reverted to the original Christian belief that Genesis 19 refers to a lack of charity and to ill treatment of strangers. Consider:
Furthur Reading:
...And The Bible Says These Are OK!
Though we do not have Bible passages that clearly tell us homosexuality is wrong, we do have passages that clearly allow other forms of marrige we now consider sinful. These include polygamous, arranged, and child-to-adult marriges. Most horifying, is the rule that a raped woman must marry her attacker.
"
www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/Biblic...
But They Can't Have Kids Naturally, So It's Not Proper Marrige!
By this logic, couples with fertility problems, testicular and ovarian cancer, paralysis, those with intersex disorders (a physical problem), and the elderly should not be allowed to marry. None of these groups can concieve naturally, and yet stopping them from getting married would be considered discrimination. The party stopping it from ocurring would be sued, charged, hated, stripped of his lisence, and most importantly, the goverment would support this. Just like homosexual couples, people with these disorders and disabilities would have to use adoption or artificial insemination.
Actually, there are Bible Passages that, if interpreted a certain way, could be seen as Jesus advocating a life of celibacy for those with these complications (it also speaks against marrige in general).
""His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."
It's Bad For The Kids Though, Right?
About children raised with one homosexual parent:
"But most studies have found that outcomes for children of gay and lesbian parents are no better -- and no worse -- than for other children, whether the measures involve peer group relationships, self-esteem, behavioral difficulties, academic achievement, or warmth and quality of family relationships."
About children raised with two homosexuals parent:
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"Myth: Children raised by gay or lesbian parents are more likely to grow up gay themselves.
Fact: All of the available evidence demonstrates that the sexual orientation of parents has no impact on the sexual orientation of their children and that children of lesbian and gay parents are no more likely than any other child to grow up to be gay.9 There is some evidence that children of gays and lesbians are more tolerant of diversity, but this is certainly not a disadvantage. Of course, some children of lesbians and gay men will grow up to be gay, as will some children of heterosexual parents. These children will have the added advantage of being raised by parents who are supportive and accepting in a world that can sometimes be hostile."
- www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights_hiv-aids/overvi...
From The American Psychological Associantion's paper on Gay Parenting [ www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.... ]:
"As this summary will show, the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data." (Page 3)
"Some nonscientific organizations have attempted to convince courts that there is an actual scientific dispute in this area by citing research performed by Paul Cameron as supporting the existence of deficits in gay and lesbian parents or their children compared to heterosexual parents or their children. In fact, there is no scientific evidence of such deficits. Cameron's research is methodologically suspect. His key findings in this area have not been replicated and are contradicted by the reputable published research. Unlike research that makes a contribution to science, his key findings and conclusions have rarely been cited by subsequent scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals as informing their scientific inquiry. For a detailed critique of the research project on which Cameron has based many of his published papers, see Herek (1998)." (Page 3)
"The psychiatric, psychological, and social work professions do not consider homosexual orientation to be a mental disorder. Many years ago, the American Psychiatric Association removed "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities" (American Psychiatric Association, 1974). In 1975, the American Psychological Association took the same position and urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that had long been associated with homosexual orientation (American Psychological Association, 1975). The National Association of Social Workers has a similar policy (National Association of Social Workers, 1994).
The decision to remove homosexual orientation from the list of mental disorders reflects extensive research conducted over three decades showing that homosexual orientation is not a psychological maladjustment (Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart, Roback, Tittler, Weitz, Walston, & McKee, 1978; Reiss, 1980). There is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning, although the social and other circumstances in which lesbians and gay men live, including exposure to widespread prejudice and discrimination, often cause acute distress (Cochran, 2001; Freedman, 1971; Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart et al., 1978; Hooker, 1957; Meyer, 2003; Reiss, 1980)" (Page 4)
"Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation (Anderssen, Amlie, & Ytteroy, 2002; Brewaeys & van Hall, 1997; Parks, 1998; Patterson, 2000; Patterson & Chan, 1996; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999; Victor & Fish, 1995). Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly either in their overall mental health or in their approaches to child rearing (Bos et al., 2004; Kweskin & Cook, 1982; Lyons, 1983; Miller, Jacobsen, & Bigner, 1981; Mucklow & Phelan, 1979; Pagelow, 1980; Parks, 1998; Patterson, 2001; Rand, Graham, & Rawlings, 1982; Siegenthaler & Bigner, 2000; Thompson, McCandless, & Strickland, 1971)." (Page 4)
"Lesbian couples who are parenting together have most often been found to divide household and family labor relatively evenly and to report satisfaction with their couple relationships (Bos et al., 2004; Brewaeys et al., 1997; Chan, et al., 1998a; Ciano-Boyce & Shelley-Sireci, 2002; Hand, 1991; Johnson & O'Connor, 2002; Koepke, Hare, & Moran, 1992; Osterweil, 1991; Patterson, 1995a; Sullivan, 1996; Tasker & Golombok, 1998; Vanfraussen, Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, & Brewaeys, 2003). Research on gay fathers likewise suggests that they are likely to divide the work involved in child care relatively evenly and that they are happy with their couple relationships (Johnson & O'Connor, 2002; McPherson, 1993)." (Page 4)
"Sexual Orientation. A number of investigators have also studied a third component of sexual identity, sexual orientation (Bailey, Bobrow, Wolfe, & Mickach, 1995; Bozett, 1980, 1987, 1989; Gottman, 1990; Golombok & Tasker, 1996; Green, 1978; Huggins, 1989; Miller, 1979; Paul, 1986; Rees, 1979; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). In all studies, the great majority of offspring of both lesbian mothers and gay fathers described themselves as heterosexual. Taken together, the data do not suggest elevated rates of homosexuality among the offspring of lesbian or gay parents. For instance, Huggins (1989) interviewed 36 adolescents, half of whom had lesbian mothers and half of whom had heterosexual mothers. No children of lesbian mothers identified themselves as lesbian or gay, but one child of a heterosexual mother did; this difference was not statistically significant. In another study, Bailey and his colleagues (1995) studied adult sons of gay fathers and found more than 90% of the sons to be heterosexual." (Page 5)
The report is seven pages long, plus references and resources. This is its conclusion:
"In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth.
But Gays Are Pedophiles and Will Molest Their Kids!Once again, nowhere is there proof of it in the Bible, and Jesus did not forbid homosexuals from having kids.
"Concerns that children of lesbian or gay parents are more likely than children of heterosexual parents to be sexually abused have also been addressed. Results of work in this area reveal that the great majority of adults who perpetrate sexual abuse are male; sexual abuse of children by adult women is extremely rare (Finkelhor & Russell, 1984; Jones & McFarlane, 1980; Sarafino, 1979). Moreover, the overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse cases involve an adult male abusing a young female (Jenny, Roesler, & Poyer, 1994; Jones & McFarlane, 1980). Available evidence reveals that gay men are no more likely than heterosexual men to perpetrate child sexual abuse (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978; Jenny et al., 1994; Sarafino, 1979). There are few published reports relevant to the issue of sexual abuse of children living in custody of lesbian or gay parents. A recent study did, however, find that none of the lesbian mothers participating in a longitudinal study had abused their children (Gartrell et al., 2005). Fears that children in custody of lesbian or gay parents might be at heightened risk for sexual abuse are without basis in the research literature." (Page 5, same study as above)
"Studies on who commits child sexual abuse vary in their findings, but the most common finding is that the majority of sexual offenders are family members or are otherwise known to the child. Sexual abuse by strangers is not nearly as common as sexual abuse by family members. Research further shows that men perpetrate most instances of sexual abuse, but there are cases in which women are the offenders. Despite a common myth, homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are."(Page 3, : www.apa.org/pubs/info/brochures/sex-abus...)
With Love; Erika |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 12, 2010 - 1:17AM #2 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Great post Erika! You obviously put quite a bit of time, effort, and research into what you wrote and, IMO, hit the nail right on the head. The only thing you might have done that would have been better would have been posting it in the Christianity and Homosexuality forum, but that is just splitting hairs. Keep up the good work! Peace, Tpaine
"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 12, 2010 - 1:57AM #3 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Awesome post, Erika. For the most part anyway. It's a popular opinion on these forums that Davey and Jonny were lovers, but it's only an opinion. Suggesting that Naomi and her daughter in-law were lovers is far beyond opinion and starts getting into perverted, disgusting talk that completely undermines you. I'm not going to dignify Daniel with a response. He could've been asexual for all I know. Homoerotizing texts in order to "find" gay presence is historical rot. It's irresponsible, subjective and suggests insecurity on behalf of the gay community and their allies that they "need" to find gay people in history to credit themselves; which is a disservice to the heterosexuals who are smeared and the actual gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender persons in history that are apparently not important enough. The same rules apply to literary sources. Is it an insult to call someone gay? Yes. If that person is straight, they should be appreciated and accepted for the way they were born. This applies both ways. You see we rave about how perceived sexual identity needs to be protected and how many straight kids commit suicide, but then we go and try to "gay up" as many literary and historical figures as possible which makes us no better than the bullies. Much of your post is dead on. Particularly in relation to the facts of the contemporary times. For that, I commend and thank you for your time and hard work.
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells. For ancient king and elvish lord There many a gloaming golden hoard They shaped and wrought, and light they caught To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 12, 2010 - 11:33AM #4 | |||||||||||||||||||
I feel no 'need' to find gay people in The Bible, and did not search for them when I set out to write this essay. Though currently of a Pagan path, I was raised as a devout Christian for the majority of my lifetime. Through my years in the Church, I attended Sunday School, was active in the Youth Group, volunteered as an acolyte, and, towards the end, received confirmation. I have extensively studied both the Christian Old Testament, the New Testament, (and after leaving the Church) the Qua'ran and some of the Tanakh (and have found some minor differences - mainly in how they are ordered). I already knew of these relationships, and only needed to go back and confirm and get the exact quote. Certainly, I could fight for the rights and morality of the LGBT community without The Bible, and have many times. For that, as you suggested, I use famous LGBT historical figures (assumed and confirmed), some of the facts listed here, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, and, depending on circumstance and who I am speaking to, some of Jesus's teachings (essentially: love all; judge none). Pointing out the homosexual actions of Biblical figures was simply to illustrate that it was talked about and frequently displayed openly throughout the book. That God, as described in both Old and New Testament, never clearly spoke out against it, and many of His people engaged in it. Though counter argument could be made the relationship between Ruth and Naomi - and Ruth as a stand aloe figure, as well - from where I stand, had a homosexual aspect to it. There are some things that cannot be ignored:
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this, and would never try to "gay up" literary and historical figures unless I truly believed in their homosexuality and felt I could back it up - or, in some cases, acts of homosexuality. Nor, as explained, do I go looking for such figures.
Thank you, both for compliment and disagreement. Being intellectually challenged forces me to take another look at my key points, clarify them, and, in turn, this will make me better at debating. For that, I am thankful.
I did not know there was such a forum, or I would have placed it there! Thank you for the compliments, and heads up for the future. With Love; Erika
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 12, 2010 - 4:30PM #5 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it! I still have a major contention with Naomi and Ruth of course. As far as Ruth was concerned, Naomi was her mother and all she had left in the world. She had chosen her new family and her new people. The emphasis here is on the deep love and sense of belonging that a convert has for being Jewish. As a convert myself, this is the clearest and simplest thing in the world. This makes the attempt at sexualizing the love, commitment and connection all the more hurtful to someone like me. I would have said the same thing. It is the idea that converts may not have been born Jewish, but their souls, their neshama was Jewish. Discovering that and joining your people willingly is a deep declartion of love and commitment, but it has nothing to do with marriage or a silly Christian use of the passage at their weddings. Your idea is based on an ignorant and twisted Christian one. I assure you, the Tanakh and Old Testament are nothing alike and in more ways than how they are ordered. There is a completely different way to read, understand and interpret everything. While your conclusions might seem logical and effective against Christian bigots, they are baseless and even insulting to me. I hope this is helpful to you.
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells. For ancient king and elvish lord There many a gloaming golden hoard They shaped and wrought, and light they caught To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 12, 2010 - 7:08PM #6 | |||||||||||||||||||
As with you!
I apologize for the offense. Before I respond, please know I never set out to intentionality offend anyone. The relationship I read between Naomi and Ruth is one that stands as more than platonic; it is deep, committed, and beautiful. To me, from a non-Jewish standpoint, it is a passage about being able to find and believe in that love despite so much grief and heartbreak. i interpret the love as one homosexual in nature; of two women finding that same level of emotion and comfort that they once did from men. I do not mean that they indulged sexually with each other - though I do not scowl at the possibility. To me, sexual activity between two individuals is the highest expression of love, commitment, and bonding. To help understand your view; can I ask your opinion of non-marital and homosexual sex (or in general)? Their relationship being romantic only makes this view more powerful, to me. So much loss had been experienced, to see two people come together with such passion and devotion is such an amazing image of human strength and resilience. I found your comments on your interpretation of the passage and conversion beautiful and interesting. It is a new way to look at the passage, and I will go back and re-read it in that light. It is also helped clarify where you were coming from. As a non-Jewish person, I doubt I will feel as deeply with that interpretation of it as you do; but it is always fascinating that one book - or part of a book - can mean so many different things to so many different people. Your comment also interested me, because many of the Jewish people I have known - which, is not many and I in no way generalized - always would tell me you had to be born Jewish (in the physical sense). The idea that your soul is born to a certain belief is something I appreciate and relate to. Though raised Christian, I never felt connected to it, even as I engaged fully in the Church. Something never seemed to fit. When I found Pagan religions such as Asatru or Druidism, I finally connected with something. As if I always was meant to be apart of that. Going along with your interpretation of this passage, I feel that homosexual relationship can also fit. To find in the soul of a person you have fallen in love with a reflection of what you have always felt, to me, is a beautiful thing. When you tie your souls together in the romantic sense, you are also merging your soul with the religion and culture that you feel matches who you truly are. Obviously, it is not a requirement; but it makes the idea all the more beautiful, to me. The conversion not only represents her love for another woman; but to a religion that you feel inherently connected to. Once again, I also must point out that line in Genesis. In those times, when a woman married her husband, she became apart of his heritage.
You are correct in saying many of my arguments are targeted towards a Christian audience. This was due to the fact that, it seems, the most passionately anti-gay activists - the ones who run all the organisations and ministries - are, indeed, Christian. Nevertheless, it was a fault to make the assumption that I would only face opposition from Christian sects. I hope the response I delivered in this post was more mindful of your particular viewpoint as a Jewish person.
Very much so. Once again, thank you for the challenge. |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 13, 2010 - 1:15AM #7 | |||||||||||||||||||
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My opinion on homosexual sex is that I prefer it more than once a day when possible. I have absolutely no problem with people being intimate outside of marriage. I can understand someone wanting to interpret the passage that way, but for my faith it cannot possibly be any more beautiful than it already is. Both my wife and I are converts. We don't see Naomi and Ruth as anything beyond a mother and daughter, with a deep and passionate love for one another. Ruth chose to be Jewish, even after her husband died and she could have gone back to her own land. A convert in Judaism is not any less than someone born a Jew. It is worth pointing out that King David was a descendant of Ruth, the descendant of a convert. There are very clear, outlined points being made in the book and adding a sexual relationship is like trying to add to the Mona Lisa or Sistine Chapel. There's nothing that can be improved on. The beauty is already perfect. I don't think you set out to offend either, don't worry. It's a Jewish book, written for ourselves. If you can find other meanings and beauty then I won't begrudge it, but at the very least understand and appreciate the intended context as well.
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells. For ancient king and elvish lord There many a gloaming golden hoard They shaped and wrought, and light they caught To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 13, 2010 - 2:23PM #8 | |||||||||||||||||||
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I disagree that it was "written for ourselves". I think it was written largely for the Bronze Age, largely illiterate nomadic sheep- and goat-herders in the Middle East that populate it. Not sure why any part of it should be relevant to 21st century society. Adored the detail of the original post. I, too believe J&D's relationship to be physical (i.e. they WERE lovers, according to the recorded words we are left with today). And, I do NOT believe it is an "insult" to call someone gay, just like I am not 'insulted' when people call me straight. It is only when people think of being gay as somehow 'lesser' that it is an insult. In fact it is neither. |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 13, 2010 - 3:32PM #9 | |||||||||||||||||||
Considering that you're not a Jew, I never said it was written for you. I find it insulting to be accused of anything I am not. It means I am not being accepted and understood for who I am, either deliberately or in ignorance. I don't consider Republicans to be "lesser", but I would be insulted to be called one. I would also be insulted to be called a Democrat. Just because you think an insult has to imply inferiority doesn't make it so. By the way, if bronze age words aren't relevant to modern society then neither are Jonathan & David.
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells. For ancient king and elvish lord There many a gloaming golden hoard They shaped and wrought, and light they caught To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| 2 years ago :: Dec 13, 2010 - 8:59PM #10 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Yvanna, do you always pick fights for the sake of fighting? Mabe J&D could have a "civil" union. ;{O) |
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