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Switch to Forum Live View What's so bad about being gay?
4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 12:09PM #1
Janeiro
Posts: 46

What is it specifically about being gay or lesbian that disqualifies them from being a good person?  Apart from just saying, for example, "because God said so."  If asked about the sins of lying, cheating, stealing... no problem, of course, even for nonChristians to articulate why these things are wrong.  It's a bit harder to justify the immorality of homosexuality without falling into the usual trap of irrantionality, homophobia or worse... hatred similar to racism or anti-Semitism.


How do we deal with today's gay/lesbian ideal: monogamous, faithful, loving and devoted relationships?  And when you really think about it, what's so bad about being gay anyway?

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 12:17PM #2
TPaine
Posts: 9,047

Feb 10, 2010 -- 12:09PM, Janeiro wrote:


What is it specifically about being gay or lesbian that disqualifies them from being a good person?  Apart from just saying, for example, "because God said so."  If asked about the sins of lying, cheating, stealing... no problem, of course, even for nonChristians to articulate why these things are wrong.  It's a bit harder to justify the immorality of homosexuality without falling into the usual trap of irrantionality, homophobia or worse... hatred similar to racism or anti-Semitism.


How do we deal with today's gay/lesbian ideal: monogamous, faithful, loving and devoted relationships?  And when you really think about it, what's so bad about being gay anyway?




As a straight male, my answer to your question is that there is nothing at all wrong with being a LGBT person. It's the bigots that see something wrong with them that have the problem.

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 12:25PM #3
Tudobem
Posts: 173

I don't think there's anything inherently, naturally or permantly wrong with being gay or lesbian. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Circle with the rim knocked off. Etc. It's your thinking it's wrong that makes it so.  Those usual 6 Clobber verses from the Bible people use to gay bash have taken out of their cultural context, mistranslated and misinterpreted.  But hey, it's more cultural today than Biblical.  Every school boy or girl knows "that's so gay" is a bad thing and popular cultural in movies and song have made fun of gays and lesbians ad naseum.


...just some random reactions and thoughts from a regular "normal" straight dude who has gay acquaintances and fellow workers etc.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 1:07PM #4
Lutz
Posts: 167

... from another straight man:


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"  Declaration of Independence


The 14th Amendment to the Constitution prohibits a state government from denying "to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


that's my view of gays

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 1:22PM #5
MarcosRamos
Posts: 171

Don't think there's anything inherently wrong with gay folk; at least the ones our family has known or has in our lives now.  People who don't like gays are usually hyper macho types, agressive, a bit bullying in their approach to life (applies to some females also) and religious folkof the fundamentalist persuasion who rely on their pastors and priests for "guidence" on morality.  Mostly older people,  but not all, of course.  My kids are taught by myself and wife to be respectful and kind to gays at school and to stick up for the underdog when appropriate.  To me, it's like this... gays are unusual in that instead of opposite sex attraction they are attracted to their own sex... could be compared to those who happen to be born left handed... unusual, but not unnatural and certainly carries no implication of morality either way.


BTW  Good Question!

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 2:17PM #6
Austa
Posts: 95

 


How do we deal with today's gay/lesbian ideal: monogamous, faithful, loving and devoted relationships?  And when you really think about it, what's so bad about being gay anyway?


I believe my son is gay.  His early marriage to his high school sweet heart ended in divorce and no children.  He and his former wife are still friends and she remarried.  He played football in school, went into the military (don't ask), graduated law school, passed his bar and his now working in a very large distant city and doing well.  Of course he never calls or writes letters but he does email.  He and his partner live together in a very nice condo they bought together and attend an Episcopal church and participate in church activities.  The partner is also a lawyer, but works at a different firm. They take vacations together sort of like Brokeback Mountiain style as my son is a hunting and fishing type guy like his late father.  Strangely my son has never said he was gay, but I figured it out ages ago.  Not from any sterotypical thing, but it just sort of dawned on me... lots of little clues.  OK he's living with a guy his own age in a 1 bedroom condo and they don't do a lot of dating women.  Beginning to get the picture?  I've tried to let them know they are always welcome in my home for visits and they have been nice to me... taking me out when visiting his hometown and buying me some nice gifts for my birthday and Christmas and Mothers Day.  When he got his first big paycheck, he sent me something very nice as a thank you for everything a mother usually does for her boy.  I thought that was quite a thoughtful thing.


BUT... our relatives and neighbors and "friends" are dismissive of him and have said really stupid ugly things about him... just mind boggeling in their utter ignorance.  What can I say?


I don't think there's anything I can think of that is wrong with him.  Honestly.  Except maybe if I had known he was gay when he was growing up at home, I would have taught him how to cook.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 2:32PM #7
marshal
Posts: 195

Austa:  really thoughtful responce.  what a cross you have to bear with your relatives, neighbors and "friends"  But don't you want grandchildren?  What about that?

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 2:47PM #8
Austa
Posts: 95

Grandkids?  I'd be an unusual mother if I didn't want grandkids.  But my son's happines comes first and foremost because it's his life not mine.  Of course I wanted grandkids.  I do have a pair of twins from my divorced daughter (her husband abandoned her).  If I only had one gay child and no grandkids, I think I would still put his own happiness first rather than wanting grandkids from him and wishing that he were straight in the conventional way.  And then again, I guess it's possible for my son to adopt a child or arrange for some other form of creating a grandchild for me.  But to say that my own happiness and fullfillment comes only and soley from grandchildren... that's equally wrong for me.  I love children; I raised two.  My husband died a number of years ago from a stroke.  I have 2 children, 2 grandkids, friends from bridge games and church and a cousin I see for lunch once in a while.  I read a lot and attend movies and concerts with my cousin when we can. I sometimes take continuing education courses at our community college. I have to say, I have a happy life. I love being a grandma to my precious twins.  I wish my daughter would find a nice man and marry again.  But I don't interfer in her life.  I pretty much accept life as it comes and do the best I can with the blessings I've had.  I do love my gay son as much as I love my daughter and my grandkids. 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 2:47PM #9
dblad
Posts: 1,595

Feb 10, 2010 -- 2:32PM, marshal wrote:


Austa:  really thoughtful responce.  what a cross you have to bear with your relatives, neighbors and "friends"  But don't you want grandchildren?  What about that?




I agree with Austa... but what is this "don't you want grandchildren?" BS... what do you think he should do? Go out and breed so Austa can have grandchildren?


Undecided




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4 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2010 - 2:48PM #10
dblad
Posts: 1,595

Feb 10, 2010 -- 12:09PM, Janeiro wrote:


...  And when you really think about it, what's so bad about being gay anyway?




There is nothing wrong with being LGBT, but society throughout the ages has thought so... starting here with 425 BCE and the treatment of LGBT's gets progressively worse.

 

425 BCE- 388 BCE A series of satires published by Aristophanes ridicule the effeminate man, the transvestite, and adult males who enjoyed the passive sexual role. This provides evidence that although Greek culture was accepting of homosexuality, they did not accept effeminate males. Effeminacy in men was publicly ridiculed.[4]


305- 306 Council of Elvira (now Granada, Spain). This council was representative of the Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals the right to Communion.


314 Council of Ancyra (now Ankara, Turkey). This council was representative of the Eastern European Church and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years to unmarried men under the age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts, and excluded the man for life if he was married and over the age of 50.


342 – The first law against homosexual marriage was promulgated by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans.[11]


390 – In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.[12]


529 – The Christian emperor Justinian I (527-565) made homosexuals a scape goat for problems such as "famines, earthquakes, and pestilences." [14]


589 – The Visigothic kingdom in Spain, is converted from Arianism to Catholicism. This conversion leads to a revision of the law to conform to those of Catholic countries. These revisions include provisions for the persecution of gays and Jews.[15]


693 – In Iberia, Visigothic ruler Egica of Hispania and Septimania, demanded that a Church council confront the problem of homosexuality in the Kingdom. The Sixteenth Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and be banished into exile.[4]


1120 Baldwin II of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who perpetually commit sodomy.[4]


1140 The Italian Monk Gratian compiles his work Concordia discordantium canonum in which he argues that sodomy is the worst of all the sexual sins because it involves using the member in an unnatural way.[4]


1179 The Third Lateran Council of Rome issues a decree for the excommunication of sodomites.

 
1232 Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States. Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for 1st and 2nd offending sodomites and burning for the 3rd or habitual offenders.[citation needed]


1250–1300 – "Between 1250 and 1300, homosexual activity passed from being completely legal in most of Europe to incurring the death penalty in all but a few contemporary legal compilations." — John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (1980) p. 293. Other historians dispute Boswell's claim, however[citation needed].


1260 In France, 1st offending sodomites lost their testicles, 2nd offenders lost their member, and 3rd offenders were burned. Women caught in same-sex acts could be mutilated and executed as well.[4]

1265 Thomas Aquinas argues that sodomy is second only to murder in the ranking of sins.[4]


1283 French Civil Code dictated that convicted sodomites not only were burned but that their property was forfeited.

 
1370s – Jan van Aersdone and Willem Case were two men executed in Antwerp in the 1370s. The charge against them was gay sex, which was illegal and strenuously vilified in medieval Europe. Aersdone and Case stand out because records of their names have survived. One other couple still known by name from the 14th century were Giovanni Braganza and Nicoleto Marmagna of Venice.[17]


1483 The Spanish Inquisition begins. Sodomites were stoned, castrated, and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were prosecuted for sodomy.[4]

 
1532 Holy Roman Empire makes sodomy punishable by death.[4]


1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making all male-male sexual activity punishable by death.[18]

    
1620 Brandenburg-Prussia criminalizes sodomy, making it punishable by death.[4]

 
1624 – Richard Cornish of the Virginia Colony is tried and hanged for sodomy.[19]

    
1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for female sodomy in Germany

.
1779 – USA- In 1779 Thomas Jefferson prepared a draft of Virginia’s criminal statute, envisaging that the punishment for sodomy should be castration.[22] The bill read:

“Whosoever shall be guilty of rape, polygamy, or sodomy with a man or woman, shall be punished; if a man, by castration, a woman, by boring through the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch in diameter at the least.” (Virginia Bill number 64; authored by Jefferson; June 18, 1779).

 

And it goes on and on... but you can read for yourself here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_h...



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