And the real tenents of those religions simply do not support or approve of homosexual carnal relations or gay marraige. Homosexuality can't be reconciled with orthodox religion. Peroid. End of story.
Ah... orthodox religion. Now if you are talking Orthodox Judaism or Catholicism you might be able to pursue something there but the majority of American Christians are protestants. Protestants as I imagine you know despite your misuse of the word "orthodox" have broken away from the Church's teachings in a number of ways. I hear some of them even let women become preachers who give sermons to men. Protestant history, in case you are not familiar with it, is filled with examples of congregations breaking away because they feel an interpretation of scripture is incorrect.
So, it's not the "end of the story" unless of course you really do only mean Catholics and Orthodox Jews. If you mean more Christian denominations you will need to brush up on your history.
And the real tenents of those religions simply do not support or approve of homosexual carnal relations or gay marraige. Homosexuality can't be reconciled with orthodox religion. Peroid. End of story.
But, orthodox religion can, and will be reconciled with homosexuality.
All that "equality" can be accopmplished through domestic partnership benefits -- regardless of whether the couple is a gay couple, a shacking-up straight couple.. a couple of siblings that moved in together to take care of their elderly Mom... or whatever. I think the underlying reason is a real desire to "normalize" -- or mainstream -- homosexuality. Is that an unworthy goal? Of course not. I don't question for a second the personal intergity of gays who seek that.
could you go into how you think this "equality" can be accompished through domestic partnership benefits ---- remember this "equality" includes the same rights as hetro married couples in child rearing, nexct of kin rights, inheritance rights, divorce rights, pension share rights domestic violence rights ... etc.
genuinly curious as i know the issues as they relate to the UK but am unaware of how domestic partnership laws work in the US.
All I have questioned, and will continue to question, is the intergity, logic and intellectual honesty of the arguments used to that end. They just flat-out don't stand up to real scrutiny, IMO, and eventually, house of cards will fall.
So far you have not proven this to be accurate; so why not provide a relaible source ot support this assertion ;)
Also, I was noting that some are pointing out that many gays apparenlty never cared about being "mainstreamed" in the first place. Marriage just wasn't important to them in that regard, because it was the hetros' thing, institution, burden -- however you want to see it.
It is true and laways worth noting NO group of people are homogenus as such it stands to reason not every LGBT person will desire marriage or even an LGBT right to civil marriage, however all that proves is all folks are different.
However, it makes no particular point in the move to enable civil marriage for LGBT folks - afterall there are a number of hetros who do not beleive in marriage civil, religious or otherwise, nobody is using this as an argument of denying hetros who do wish to marry the right to marry their loved one .....
"Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion"
LOL ....... And I've no doubt that we're seeing a generation that --regarding many issues-- is trading mindless bigotry for honest critical thought, ranting and platitudes for reasoned debate and ignorant religious dogma for compassionate spirituality .
Yep... I see what was once only a dream taking form in a new generation and it gives me hope .
Of coarse some things never change so there will always be the sad, silly types who need someone to feel better than but can only argue for their delusion of superiority by saying that it's "self evident" or "common sense" that they are superior to some others . And the time will come when some old geezer will embarrass himself and his grandkids by preaching about how that family up the road with the two moms or two dads is just not as good as his family. And his grandchildren will just roll their eyes and rationalize to themselves that gramps isn't really a bigot .....It's just his senile babbling.
And neither can the arguments used to attempt to "normalize" homosexuality be reconciled with real, honest scrutiny, common sense, logic or even basic biology.
Sorry, wrong. Science/biology considers homosexuality to be a normal variation.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion
Actually it seems that people are willing to base their judgments on ther own experience and interaction rather than parroting badly translated ancient documents. It also seems like there is an interest in actually practicing the real tenets of their chosen religion rather than paying lip service to them. Bravo!
And the real tenents of those religions simply do not support or approve of homosexual carnal relations or gay marraige. Homosexuality can't be reconciled with orthodox religion. Peroid. End of story.
And neither can the arguments used to attempt to "normalize" homosexuality be reconciled with real, honest scrutiny, common sense, logic or even basic biology.
But do people who recognize that then by default approve of hatred or personal judgement against gay people? Nope. And bravo to the people who recognize that -- all too often forgotten or ignored -- side of religion.
Like I said, even if it means kids drinking the P.C. kool-aid, I'd still rather see the positive side of that -- people treating gays like real live human beings. If that's what it takes for people to get over being uptight and freaked out over gays... well, so be it.
Opponents of same-gendered marriage are right. Our society will never be the same! I was thinking about this during Coffee Hour after services at church this morning. While watching two gay teenagers (16yo & 17yo) being themselves....and, no one cared. And watching my two children along with a dozen other children of same-gendered parents play with the ~20 other children with mixed-gender parents. All in a room of ~100people of all ages up to their 90's.......who love and accept all of the children for who they are....not based on their sexuality....nor, that of their parents. I realize this is not the case (yet) in all parts of our great nation....but, here in CT we have a whole generation (the 1st) growing up with gay/lesbian/bisexual role models. A generation growing up knowing that they can marry the person of their choice regardless of gender. A generation growing up knowing that some of their teachers are openly gay/lesbian/bisexual....some of their ministers....state and local politicians...etc. Growing up seeing openly gay/lesbians/bisexual characters on tv/in movies who are not in the story to be the butt of the joke or the twisted character to dislike/feel sorry for. A generation growing up seeing straight.....learned men/women of law (judges), great political leaders (senators, mayors, governors) calling for and putting and to discrimination in the laws of our land. A generation growing up seeing straight men/women of God proclaim we all are God's children and calling for an end to discrimination, prejudice, and bigotry in the church, the laws of our land, as well as in our everyday lives. So, what does this mean...a generation with less divorce and broken homes because husbands and wives will not be breaking the hearts of their spouses when after years of marriage and/or a couple children, they decide they can no longer live a lie. A lie that they are straight and married either to hide from themselves and/or others.....or, married to conform to what they thought society demanded of them. A generation with gay priests who joined the priesthood because they have been called rather than to hide. A generation of honest.....straight, gay, or bisexual ministers who became ministers because they were called....not because the ministry along with their mixed marriage was a way to pretend they were straight. A generation much happier and healthier than those before us.
Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion.
Be that as it may, I think for the most part, things don't get "better" or "worse" as time passes -- as much as middle-aged and older folks like to sit back and say, "well, back in my day..."
No, things simply change. And for every negative, there's a positive -- not to mention that what's negative and what's positive is often in the eye of the beholder. Yep, kids these days are drinking the P.C. Kool-Aid. But then again, you are correct in saying they'll probably be a lot less fearful and uptight about sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular than many previous generations.
As for gay marriage in all 50 states..yep, that's also only a matter of time. In the long run, however, the number of gays (even relative to the tiny percentage of the population that is gay in the first place) actually seeking marriage -- once the novelty of it all wears off -- will likely be underwhelming. I've recently heard some social commentators pontificating on the subject say that marriage has been a pet project of only a relativley small, very vocal element of the homosexual community. Many more gays than some people might realize never cared a toss either way about marriage -- because they saw it all along as a hetro institution and tradition anyway. And those gays, the "silent majority," if you will, were more interested in the basic concerns of being respected as human beings, being left alone and able to live in peace and free from fear than in trying to immitate what straights were doing.
Anyway, that's what some are saying, and I'm inclined to think there's probably some validity to it.
Being recognized as EQUAL tax-paying citizens is also nice. I really don't want my taxes going to some faith based institution that does not recognize gays as equal in every respect. Believe what you want, but to deprive a select group of equal rights is unconstitutional!
.
All that "equality" can be accopmplished through domestic partnership benefits -- regardless of whether the couple is a gay couple, a shacking-up straight couple.. a couple of siblings that moved in together to take care of their elderly Mom... or whatever. I think the underlying reason is a real desire to "normalize" -- or mainstream -- homosexuality. Is that an unworthy goal? Of course not. I don't question for a second the personal intergity of gays who seek that.
All I have questioned, and will continue to question, is the intergity, logic and intellectual honesty of the arguments used to that end. They just flat-out don't stand up to real scrutiny, IMO, and eventually, house of cards will fall.
Also, I was noting that some are pointing out that many gays apparenlty never cared about being "mainstreamed" in the first place. Marriage just wasn't important to them in that regard, because it was the hetros' thing, institution, burden -- however you want to see it.
Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion
Actually it seems that people are willing to base their judgments on ther own experience and interaction rather than parroting badly translated ancient documents. It also seems like there is an interest in actually practicing the real tenets of their chosen religion rather than paying lip service to them. Bravo!
Opponents of same-gendered marriage are right. Our society will never be the same! I was thinking about this during Coffee Hour after services at church this morning. While watching two gay teenagers (16yo & 17yo) being themselves....and, no one cared. And watching my two children along with a dozen other children of same-gendered parents play with the ~20 other children with mixed-gender parents. All in a room of ~100people of all ages up to their 90's.......who love and accept all of the children for who they are....not based on their sexuality....nor, that of their parents. I realize this is not the case (yet) in all parts of our great nation....but, here in CT we have a whole generation (the 1st) growing up with gay/lesbian/bisexual role models. A generation growing up knowing that they can marry the person of their choice regardless of gender. A generation growing up knowing that some of their teachers are openly gay/lesbian/bisexual....some of their ministers....state and local politicians...etc. Growing up seeing openly gay/lesbians/bisexual characters on tv/in movies who are not in the story to be the butt of the joke or the twisted character to dislike/feel sorry for. A generation growing up seeing straight.....learned men/women of law (judges), great political leaders (senators, mayors, governors) calling for and putting and to discrimination in the laws of our land. A generation growing up seeing straight men/women of God proclaim we all are God's children and calling for an end to discrimination, prejudice, and bigotry in the church, the laws of our land, as well as in our everyday lives. So, what does this mean...a generation with less divorce and broken homes because husbands and wives will not be breaking the hearts of their spouses when after years of marriage and/or a couple children, they decide they can no longer live a lie. A lie that they are straight and married either to hide from themselves and/or others.....or, married to conform to what they thought society demanded of them. A generation with gay priests who joined the priesthood because they have been called rather than to hide. A generation of honest.....straight, gay, or bisexual ministers who became ministers because they were called....not because the ministry along with their mixed marriage was a way to pretend they were straight. A generation much happier and healthier than those before us.
Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion.
Be that as it may, I think for the most part, things don't get "better" or "worse" as time passes -- as much as middle-aged and older folks like to sit back and say, "well, back in my day..."
No, things simply change. And for every negative, there's a positive -- not to mention that what's negative and what's positive is often in the eye of the beholder. Yep, kids these days are drinking the P.C. Kool-Aid. But then again, you are correct in saying they'll probably be a lot less fearful and uptight about sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular than many previous generations.
As for gay marriage in all 50 states..yep, that's also only a matter of time. In the long run, however, the number of gays (even relative to the tiny percentage of the population that is gay in the first place) actually seeking marriage -- once the novelty of it all wears off -- will likely be underwhelming. I've recently heard some social commentators pontificating on the subject say that marriage has been a pet project of only a relativley small, very vocal element of the homosexual community. Many more gays than some people might realize never cared a toss either way about marriage -- because they saw it all along as a hetro institution and tradition anyway. And those gays, the "silent majority," if you will, were more interested in the basic concerns of being respected as human beings, being left alone and able to live in peace and free from fear than in trying to immitate what straights were doing.
Anyway, that's what some are saying, and I'm inclined to think there's probably some validity to it.
Being recognized as EQUAL tax-paying citizens is also nice. I really don't want my taxes going to some faith based institution that does not recognize gays as equal in every respect. Believe what you want, but to deprive a select group of equal rights is unconstitutional!
Opponents of same-gendered marriage are right. Our society will never be the same! I was thinking about this during Coffee Hour after services at church this morning. While watching two gay teenagers (16yo & 17yo) being themselves....and, no one cared. And watching my two children along with a dozen other children of same-gendered parents play with the ~20 other children with mixed-gender parents. All in a room of ~100people of all ages up to their 90's.......who love and accept all of the children for who they are....not based on their sexuality....nor, that of their parents. I realize this is not the case (yet) in all parts of our great nation....but, here in CT we have a whole generation (the 1st) growing up with gay/lesbian/bisexual role models. A generation growing up knowing that they can marry the person of their choice regardless of gender. A generation growing up knowing that some of their teachers are openly gay/lesbian/bisexual....some of their ministers....state and local politicians...etc. Growing up seeing openly gay/lesbians/bisexual characters on tv/in movies who are not in the story to be the butt of the joke or the twisted character to dislike/feel sorry for. A generation growing up seeing straight.....learned men/women of law (judges), great political leaders (senators, mayors, governors) calling for and putting and to discrimination in the laws of our land. A generation growing up seeing straight men/women of God proclaim we all are God's children and calling for an end to discrimination, prejudice, and bigotry in the church, the laws of our land, as well as in our everyday lives. So, what does this mean...a generation with less divorce and broken homes because husbands and wives will not be breaking the hearts of their spouses when after years of marriage and/or a couple children, they decide they can no longer live a lie. A lie that they are straight and married either to hide from themselves and/or others.....or, married to conform to what they thought society demanded of them. A generation with gay priests who joined the priesthood because they have been called rather than to hide. A generation of honest.....straight, gay, or bisexual ministers who became ministers because they were called....not because the ministry along with their mixed marriage was a way to pretend they were straight. A generation much happier and healthier than those before us.
Yes, I've no doubt we're seeing a generation that -- at least regarding the issue of homosexuality -- is trading political correctness for honest critical thought, rhetoric and slogans for reasoned debate and feel-good platitude for genuine religion.
Be that as it may, I think for the most part, things don't get "better" or "worse" as time passes -- as much as middle-aged and older folks like to sit back and say, "well, back in my day..."
No, things simply change. And for every negative, there's a positive -- not to mention that what's negative and what's positive is often in the eye of the beholder. Yep, kids these days are drinking the P.C. Kool-Aid. But then again, you are correct in saying they'll probably be a lot less fearful and uptight about sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular than many previous generations.
As for gay marriage in all 50 states..yep, that's also only a matter of time. In the long run, however, the number of gays (even relative to the tiny percentage of the population that is gay in the first place) actually seeking marriage -- once the novelty of it all wears off -- will likely be underwhelming. I've recently heard some social commentators pontificating on the subject say that marriage has been a pet project of only a relativley small, very vocal element of the homosexual community. Many more gays than some people might realize never cared a toss either way about marriage -- because they saw it all along as a hetro institution and tradition anyway. And those gays, the "silent majority," if you will, were more interested in the basic concerns of being respected as human beings, being left alone and able to live in peace and free from fear than in trying to immitate what straights were doing.
Anyway, that's what some are saying, and I'm inclined to think there's probably some validity to it.
