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Switch to Forum Live View Polygamy (AKA, Slippery Slope Ahoy!)
6 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 9:13PM #151
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220
Appy and Zach - interesting comments there.  I think men are individuals.  Some may fit these patterns and others don't.  Some men are monogamous and others are not.  Some men are close to their children and enjoy being dads.  Other men seem to like fathering children but once their kids reach a certain age they no longer have any interest.  A lot of kids are being raised by single moms with dads that don't give a crap about the kids.  Some of what you say is correct Appy for a small goup of men but it is hard to generalize about all.  In my opinion most men would not want more than one wife. 

Peace - Mareczku
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 11:04PM #152
renaka
Posts: 552
From a religious standpoint I think that polygamy is acceptable.  However, when we consider the civil aspect polygamy becomes undesirable.  One issue that comes to mind is the distribution of a deceased husbands social security and retirement.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2008 - 10:26AM #153
appy20
Posts: 10,165
Zach, your reading skills are a bit questionable. I don't know where you get some of the absurd conclusions you are drawing from what I have read. You are selectively reading WHAT I have said. 

You said:
1. Straight men are a slave to their hormones and genes, and some will absolutely marry as many women as they can if they get the chance because of their "genes"

I don't know where that came from.  All people are influenced by their genes.  More often than not, genes will out.  I believe that men will spread their seeds every chance they get.  Straight men are more likely to produce offspring, since theoretically, they will be having sex with the opposite sex and producing offpspring more often.  I can't believe that anyone seriously thinks this is sexist.  If that is true, then all of sociology, psychology and biology is sexist. I guess you think it is sexist to say that men have a y chromosome. 

2. Women somehow don't have a choice in the matter... those 10 to 20 women that a polygamist would marry all seem to be forced to say "yes", rather than "You have too many wives, NO."

I didn't address this at all.  I have said in other threads that women do allow the most promiscuous of men to breed by allowing themselves to get pregnant by them.

3. Women and gay men somehow aren't a slave to their hormones and genes, or whenever the topic is brought up, it's "irrelevant", despite the fact that it is entirely relevant.

Once again, sexually promiscuous gay men and women are not mass producing their genes to offspring.  So, this isn't about you at all unless you have more than 2 children.

1. Men make choices. If they cheat, it has less to do with their genetics, and everything to do with their choices.

Their choices are heavily influenced by innate factors such as their sex drives, desire for variety, impuse control mechanisms, and even innate personality traits like temperament which all are born with and not acquired.

2. The idea that men will somehow make lots and lots of babies in a polygamist marriage. Uhh, I'm pretty sure the word "no" exists in the female vocabulary. When making babies, it takes two to tango, and each woman has the choice to have a baby or not. Also, some men can't handle having one pregnant woman around the house... what makes you think he can handle 5?

Most women want babies.  I am not one of them but most women do.  Chances are if he has 5 wives, he will have at least 5 babies.   More likely he will have at least 10.  That is 10 X his DNA being replicated.  If he were married to one woman in this day and time, the odds are not likely that he would have 10 kids with a single woman.

3. Women don't marry men at first meet. Usually, it takes a lot of dating, sweet talking, and of course legalities, marriage ceremonies, costs, etc. All that to satisfy as the "male lust"? Wow.  Men marry every day.  Yes, they often do so to satisfy lust. 

4. You assume that men will somehow ALWAYS be in charge of these marriages. Umm, basing it on the Mormon polygamist marriage is like basing gay relationships on the promiscuous gays that everyone sees. What if it's a woman in charge? What if she wants to bring a woman into the marriage to have help? What if it's a woman who's wanting multiple men? There's so many factors you've ignored here.  Polyandry is not common.  Also, one woman cannot produce as many children as one man can in a lifetime.  If fact, women have had to strive for the means and rights to limit their childbearing capacities.   So, one polygamous woman is unlikely to pass off her genes as often as one polygamous male.  This is not sexism.  This is basic biology. 

5. It echoes back to point 2, but... remember, there's strength in numbers. If a man marries multiple women, and he starts trying to abuse one of the women, they can most certainly fight back. Not necessarily.  Women are notoriously vicious with other women they consider their rivals. 

Appy, you're a sexist who's looking for specific statistics to back your opinions up. Sorry, but a sexist is a sexist is a sexist. Also, to counter environment vs. genetics, you said that it only seems to happen with biological children, not adopted ones. Well, to counter that point... many adopted children, when they learn they are adopted, can feel somewhat of an alienation from their parents.. including their values, good or bad. The only way to get real statistics from this would be to conduct a study where the people grew up never knowing they were adopted.

The general psychological issues of adopted children have absolutely no relevance to polygamy or infidelity.  Adopted children, when it comes to infidelity, emulate  the behavior of their biological parents over their adopted ones.  In the study where 75% of male children raised by adulterous fathers, the biological children were the ones at risk.  In all twin studies,  I do mean ALL twin studies, genetics win out over adoptive family.

As for calling me a sexist.  I, nor biology, is politically correct.

I have said NUMEROUS times, this is a CONTINUUM.

Zach, do you know what a continuum is?  I have said this is a pattern. I have not said that ALL men are like this. I do think most men struggle with this issue.  Are politicians, actors, different from the rest of the world or are they just under more scrutiny?  Do you really think that men are all that monogamous?  Really?  Don't we read about a new politician every day cheating?  An actor?  A news forecaster?  A sports figure?  Add up the media males cheating and the females cheating?  Yes, women cheat.  The problem is growing. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  However, the numbers are not equal.

As for my studies that I read.  I don't select them to prove my point.  Show me some that say that these patterns do not exist.  Show me one single study that shows that men do not seek sexual variety.  Basic psychology 101 says that. 

Yes, there are men that are 100% faithful.  That is why I don't think polygamy should be legal.  Because that 100% is going to be outbred by the those that are inclined to want variety.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 1:27PM #154
croscoteo
Posts: 35
[QUOTE=appy20;679100]Zach, do you know what a continuum is?  I have said this is a pattern. I have not said that ALL men are like this. I do think most men struggle with this issue.  Are politicians, actors, different from the rest of the world or are they just under more scrutiny?  Do you really think that men are all that monogamous?  Really?  Don't we read about a new politician every day cheating?  An actor?  A news forecaster?  A sports figure?  Add up the media males cheating and the females cheating?  Yes, women cheat.  The problem is growing. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  However, the numbers are not equal..[/QUOTE]

I would have to say that, yes, politicians, actors, and sports figures ARE different than you typical average Joe.  They have higher social status and money.  These two items are "genetically desirable" to women.  Women pursue men with social status and women.  This, in and of itself, presents more opportunity for these men.  The average Joe does not have this type of opportunity.  Are these men genetically biased to be unfaithful?  Perhaps SOME of them are ... but I do not believe that MOST of them are.  By your logic, female teachers are randy slaves to their sex drive.  After all, hasn't there been a flurry of news reports about female school teachers having illicit sexual affairs with their students?  Perhaps these women were subjected to too much testosterone in the womb!

Or could it be that these people (politicians, actors, sports figures, teachers, etc.) made poor CHOICES.  Whether they gave in to their genetics and did what they did does not mean that MOST people have this type of problem.  I would be more likely to place blame on the rampant use of blatant sexuality in media, advertisements, etc. and the deterioration of the basic family structure that results from this type of social slide more than I would blame it on genetics.

I do not believe that ALL men are monogamous.  The number of  "players" out there that crave sexual conquest (both male AND female) would lend doubt to that statement.   However, I do not feel that MOST men would prefer a polygamous lifestyle.  There are a lot of men and women that prefer the "single" lifestyle where they can choose to have multiple sexual partners and little to no responsibility.  There are some men (and women) that should NOT be married.  They do not have the desire to stay with just one person.  I don't think that if polygamy was legal, that these men (or women) would suddenly seek to marry lots of women and spread their seed.  These "players" do not want children and do not want a committed relationship.  Marriage simply is NOT in their vocabulary.  There will always be men and women that fear commitment and the "constraints" that marriage will put on their lifestyle.  They fear being able to make themselves vulnerable and truly share their life with another person.  This fear will NOT drive them to polygamy to spread their seed.

All of your psychological and genetic papers may describe some of the reasons that people cheat.  But in reality, it is FEAR, not genetic desire that drives these behaviors.  The fear of loss of freedom.  The fear of having to actually care for someone other than yourself.  The fear of being inadequate as a spouse or parent.  The fear of responsibility. The fear of intimacy.  The fear of settling for less.  The fear of making a mistake.  These fears will not be assuaged by polygamy.  I believe that cheaters and men that use prostitutes are not trying to spread their seed and are not seeking a polygamous lifestyle.  I believe they are running in fear and trying to hide from themselves.  I personally believe that very FEW men would choose a polygamous lifestlye.  But then again, that is simply my opinion.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 1:27PM #155
croscoteo
Posts: 35
[QUOTE=appy20;679100]Zach, do you know what a continuum is?  I have said this is a pattern. I have not said that ALL men are like this. I do think most men struggle with this issue.  Are politicians, actors, different from the rest of the world or are they just under more scrutiny?  Do you really think that men are all that monogamous?  Really?  Don't we read about a new politician every day cheating?  An actor?  A news forecaster?  A sports figure?  Add up the media males cheating and the females cheating?  Yes, women cheat.  The problem is growing. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  However, the numbers are not equal..[/QUOTE]

I would have to say that, yes, politicians, actors, and sports figures ARE different than you typical average Joe.  They have higher social status and money.  These two items are "genetically desirable" to women.  Women pursue men with social status and women.  This, in and of itself, presents more opportunity for these men.  The average Joe does not have this type of opportunity.  Are these men genetically biased to be unfaithful?  Perhaps SOME of them are ... but I do not believe that MOST of them are.  By your logic, female teachers are randy slaves to their sex drive.  After all, hasn't there been a flurry of news reports about female school teachers having illicit sexual affairs with their students?  Perhaps these women were subjected to too much testosterone in the womb!

Or could it be that these people (politicians, actors, sports figures, teachers, etc.) made poor CHOICES.  Whether they gave in to their genetics and did what they did does not mean that MOST people have this type of problem.  I would be more likely to place blame on the rampant use of blatant sexuality in media, advertisements, etc. and the deterioration of the basic family structure that results from this type of social slide more than I would blame it on genetics.

I do not believe that ALL men are monogamous.  The number of  "players" out there that crave sexual conquest (both male AND female) would lend doubt to that statement.   However, I do not feel that MOST men would prefer a polygamous lifestyle.  There are a lot of men and women that prefer the "single" lifestyle where they can choose to have multiple sexual partners and little to no responsibility.  There are some men (and women) that should NOT be married.  They do not have the desire to stay with just one person.  I don't think that if polygamy was legal, that these men (or women) would suddenly seek to marry lots of women and spread their seed.  These "players" do not want children and do not want a committed relationship.  Marriage simply is NOT in their vocabulary.  There will always be men and women that fear commitment and the "constraints" that marriage will put on their lifestyle.  They fear being able to make themselves vulnerable and truly share their life with another person.  This fear will NOT drive them to polygamy to spread their seed.

All of your psychological and genetic papers may describe some of the reasons that people cheat.  But in reality, it is FEAR, not genetic desire that drives these behaviors.  The fear of loss of freedom.  The fear of having to actually care for someone other than yourself.  The fear of being inadequate as a spouse or parent.  The fear of responsibility. The fear of intimacy.  The fear of settling for less.  The fear of making a mistake.  These fears will not be assuaged by polygamy.  I believe that cheaters and men that use prostitutes are not trying to spread their seed and are not seeking a polygamous lifestyle.  I believe they are running in fear and trying to hide from themselves.  I personally believe that very FEW men would choose a polygamous lifestlye.  But then again, that is simply my opinion.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 2:41PM #156
appy20
Posts: 10,165
Crosocoteo. Like I said, we have to agree to disagree.  Everything from anthropology to neurology says differently.  Everything from psychology to genetics says differently.  It isn't just one field of science or a few studies. 

Your logic makes no sense.   If men are not biologically driven why would opportunity affect tham at all?  If they truly were not interested, then opportunity would not change the number of men who cheat.  I work near a cookie shop.  Cookies don't do that much for me.  So, opportunity does not make me buy cookies.    Now, if I loved cookies a lot, then the temptation might be more than I could deal with.  If a politician did not like variety, opportunity would not do anything for him.  As you are saying, the average Joe just does not get much opportunity (thus, I would argue, the popularity of prostitutes).

My point is not that all men would choose polygamy. I do believe a lot of men would and THOSE men would have more children than one monogamous male and thus spread their genes. 

Lots of men who like variety marry.  Marriage does not stop them from liking that.   Most people do not even recognize their desires.  They do not understand their brain processes to they assume that something else is involved.   Your fear theory is an example.  That is the "story" that YOUgive their biological drives.  That is what people's imagination and intellect does to biological neural processes that they cannot see.  They give the unseen a "story" that makes "sense" because they don't understand how the reward centers of the brain works.  They can't see that nor comprehend it so they give it a verbal life that may or may not have anything to do with the actual process.

I would agree that those that fear commitment would probably not want polygamy.  However, there are men who want commitment with sexual variety. Most married cheaters fall into that category.   Polygamy is a way of having their cake and eating it too. legal Polygamists would live with more sanctioned sexual variety than a monogamous male would   Polygamists do have more variety. 

Men who want variety are not necessarily the players.  They are not necessarily men who don't want children or commitment.  They may be men who don't realize that they can't deal with the monotony of a monogamous relationship.   While polygamy may not be a thousand lovers it is more than one and thus more variety.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2008 - 3:52PM #157
appy20
Posts: 10,165
Nature Neuroscience, Volume 7, Number 4, April 2004
"Men and Women Differ in Amygdala Response to Visual Sexual Stimuli"
Conclusions:  (yes, I have the entire article)

"Men are generally more interested in and responsive to visual sexually arousing stimuli than are women.  Here we used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to show that the amygdala and hypothalamus are more strongly activated n men than in women when viewing identical sexual stimuli.  This was true even when women reported greater arousal.  Sex differences were specific to the sexual nature of the stimuli, were restricted primarily to limbic regions and were larger in the left amygdala than the right amygdala.  Men and women showed similar activation patterns across multiple brain regions, including ventral striatal regions involved in reward.  Our findings indicate that the amygdala mediates sex differences in responsiveness to appetitive and biologically salient stimuli; the human amygdala may also mediate the reportedly greater role of visual stimuli in male sexual behavior, paralleling prior animal findings."

It was DEEPLY buried but here it is.  It isn't the only one I have come across in the last 30 years that show that there are differences between men and women.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2008 - 12:02AM #158
Sailorlal79
Posts: 1,365
I felt the need to revive this thread since I just rented Season 1 of "Big Love". It was an interesting perspective into how polgamy works. Assuming that this is even close to correct (I imagine it is, at least for some people) these would be my major concerns:

1) Time. This husband has no time for three wives and all these kids. No one gets all the attention they want.
2) Money. There's not enough money to go around. Although, this would probably be better if at least 2 wives would work.
3) Loneliness. It seems like you're a single parent a lot with this kind of setup. You could do it the other way, have everyone in one big house, but then the crowding would be insufferable.
4) Romance. There's nothing romantic about this. You're not anyone's only one. It would be hard to feel special as a woman.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2008 - 7:10AM #159
PaulaEdwina
Posts: 1,720
It's funny how two people can watch the same thing and see it differently. I've watched big love and thought it was awesome. I never got the sense your perspective did.

Of course this is all fiction and we can't make any assumptions about what real life polygamy is like. It would be like watching soap operas for a perspective on love and marriage in general.

Paula
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 19, 2008 - 11:52AM #160
Sailorlal79
Posts: 1,365
[QUOTE=PaulaEdwina;701014]It's funny how two people can watch the same thing and see it differently. I've watched big love and thought it was awesome. I never got the sense your perspective did.

Of course this is all fiction and we can't make any assumptions about what real life polygamy is like. It would be like watching soap operas for a perspective on love and marriage in general.

Paula[/QUOTE]

I must say I really like the show! I'm totally going to rent the rest of them!
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