[QUOTE=angpuppy;537374]I won't say this isn't a concern.  There is a potential here for homosexual couples who are baptized Catholic and even enrolled in a Catholic Church to try to file lawsuits against the Catholic Church or the diocese for refusing to marry them.  This would simply mean an economic strain for now.  However, there have been cases where the State is forcing Catholic organizations to choose between either allowing gay couples to adopt from them or to not offer an adoption service at all.  The same is true with contraceptive coverage when you're employed by a Catholic institution.

I'd say its more of a burden though than something to be seriously frightened over.[/QUOTE]


Certainly someone could try to sue a church to perform their wedding, but that won't go anywhere unless -- as in a Methodist Church-owned beach community -- they've exercised as a public entity.  There is a big difference between operating a church and a public agency.

Hi Angpuppy.  Your posts are very good.  You speak of the "Theology of the Body."  How do gay people fit in with the "Theology of the Body?"  What about people that are intersex, hermaphrodites, etc.?  It seems to me that the Church sees sexual repression as a moral good.  So if a gay person is repressed they are seen as good but gay people in committed relationships are seen as disordered by many in the Church.  How does the "Theology of the Body" speak to people that are different?  I think many people in the Church see gay people as disordered, defective and inferior.  How can we overcome this and see all as equal in human dignity.  If people are considered disordered, etc. they are not seen as equal in human dignity.

Peace - Mareczku

[QUOTE=Mareczku;537866]Hi Angpuppy.  Your posts are very good.  You speak of the "Theology of the Body."  How do gay people fit in with the "Theology of the Body?"  What about people that are intersex, hermaphrodites, etc.?  [/QUOTE]

The Theology of the Body primarily deals with an analysis of God making us male and female and the nuptial meaning God placed into our bodies.  JP II goes so far as to speak of a gospel (even the same gospel) expressed in the body, speaking of God's nature.  Its called a theology of the body, because we can learn about God by learning to read the language of our bodies. 

I have no actually completed reading the entire series of General Audiences.  Its in a book format, but its a transcript of a number of General Audience addresses JP II gave over a period of many years.  Because they're General Audiences, each address tends to reiterate what was said in the previous one and allude to what will be covered in the next, thus making the reading a bit slow.  I have been involved in a TOTB study group and have taken on the task to read sections, but my main exposure is through Christopher West and other speakers attempting to teach the principles of the TOTB.  That being said, I'm not an expert on the work. 

In regards to the homosexual act or contraceptive acts, these acts are contrary to the nuptial meaning of our body.  In regards to hermaphrodites, the Church affirms that humanity was made male and female.  Biology would seem to agree with this.  Arguments I've heard against this only point to mutations being a part of evolution and that there is no design to be defected from.

True hermaphrodites are not people with both a penis and a vagina anyway.  True hermaphrodites are individuals who have both testicular tissue and ovarian tissue.  A woman may have testicular tissue in her minor labia.  False hermaphrodites are people with both sets of secondary sex organs (the vagina and the penis).  This occurs because during the embryonic period, all people have both sets of what is to become the sex organs.  A clitoris developed from the same thing a penis develops from.  Typically one or both organs are malformed.  Other problems with the development of gentialia during embryonic development can be the development of two uterus, and sometimes two vaginas.  When a woman does have two vagina, its the upper vagina that is split and she will have two uterus.  The uterus normally merges together during embryonic development.  Its similar to the development of webbed feet, or a missing limb.  Some people will actually grow teeth and other really random tissue in the small of their back.  Other people will grow a third nipple. 

It seems to me that the Church sees sexual repression as a moral good.  So if a gay person is repressed they are seen as good but gay people in committed relationships are seen as disordered by many in the Church.  How does the "Theology of the Body" speak to people that are different?

I would not say that the Church sees sexual repression as a moral good.  Repression is a temptation that in my experience occurs due to a person seeking to see how far they can get without technically committing the sexual act they're trying to avoid.  Typically we resort to repression to try to conquer our sinful nature on our own, to defeat it.  It's motivated out of pride.

The Church calls us to recognize our weaknesses so that we do not put ourselves in temptation's way.  We are then called to rely on Christ to do the rest of the work within us by living a sacramental life.  Contrary to helping us to see how far we can get without technically sinning, this helps us to recognize all our small uncharitable acts and all our failed opportunities to act within charity. 

I think many people in the Church see gay people as disordered, defective and inferior.  How can we overcome this and see all as equal in human dignity.  If people are considered disordered, etc. they are not seen as equal in human dignity.

Peace - Mareczku

I think the only way to overcome our temptation to think ourselves superior to others is through humility.  We must acknowledge that we all share a fallen nature.  Different people have different weakness that stem from the same fallen nature.  We all are in need of Christ, and none of us get to Heaven by our own merit. 

We have to acknowledge that considering any human being for any reason inferior to ourselves is wrong and even sinful.  Our dignity lies in God's love for us, and our existence lies in God's love for us.  Every human person is willed by God from God's love.  No one exists that God does not love.  Who are we to hate or use someone God loves?  How can we say we love God, if we do not love who He created?

We can hate sin.  We can stand up for justice and call other people on in charity.  We can defend the innocent from the corrupt, but we must never dehumanize even the vilest sinner. 

The fact that our hearts do not find the capacity to love others perfectly is an opportunity to learn the humility we need to become more capable of the love God calls us to.  Acknowledging your own sinfulness and how unworthy you are of the mercy God gives you is the first step to finding mercy within you.  "For the judgment is merciless to the one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."  James 2:13  We should be aware too that we need to be merciful even of those who we see as more judgmental than ourselves, even those who are judging us.

[QUOTE=Mareczku;543982]You write very well Angpuppy.  You answer is very informative in parts.  Some clarification though, you stated, "There is no design to be defected from."  What exactly does that mean?

I was stating that the only argument I've seen for claiming that hermaphrodites are another sex rather than individuals who gentiles are disfigured, is one from a very neo-darwinist sort of evolutionary thought.  That is that there is no right way to be, no real order to the universe.  What exists is just chance.  Neo-Darwinism will go so far as to deny the existence of species.  There is no way to really define a specie even because there is no real design from a Designer (God) that can definitively say what it is to qualify as one specie or another.  Thus, these are just our own concepts, and we can conceptualize thus that any disorder in development is not a disorder anymore.

I have no heard any argument for hermphrodites being considered a third sex that includes the existence of God.  I only see people who mix atheistic ideas with Christian ones without much thought or argument.  If there is a God, there is a design.  If there is a design, then there is free to be disorders from that design. 

  I guess what I meant by my question re hermaphrodites was that considering the views of the Catholic Church is there a place for hermaphrodites in the Catholic Church.  They see people as either man or woman.  If someone if part man and part woman, is there a place for them?

I would first say that a hermaphrodite is not a person who is part man and part woman.  I would say that a hermaphrodite is a person whose sex may be ambiguous or may not be.  The less ambiguous it is, the less of a problem it is.  There are women who can go their entire lives not realizing that they have immature testicular tissue in their minor labia.  This occurrence would make them a true hermaphrodite. 

In the case of someone whose sex cannot possibly be discovered, I will only saying this.  Having a place in the Church is not dependant on whether or not you are capable of entering a marriage or capable of joining a religious order.  I do think people  have prejudices, but in regards to having a place in God's plan and finding how to authentically live the universal call to know, love and serve God, and to find an authentic way to do that within obedience to the visible Church, I would not say that is a problem.  I would admit that they have a heavy cross to carry, but that cross can be an opportunity for their sanctification and purification and they thus can use it to become great saints.

In regards to your comment on repression, you stated, "Repression is a temptation that in my experience occurs due to a person seeking to see how far they can get without technicaly committing the sexual act they are trying to avoid."  This statement goes completely over my head.  How is repression a temptation?  If someone isn't having sex how are they seeking to see how far they can get?  I don't understand this.  So a person isn't supposed to repress or supress their urges because this would be temptation?  This is confusing to me.  It is very interesting to me to hear your views on these matters as you are a very educated person. 

I was trying to state that one does not need to repress their sexuality in order to practice self control.  The temptation to repress your emotions comes when your emotions become overbearing.  Your emotions becoming overbearing comes from you putting yourself in a near occasion of sin.

Overall you need to cultivate self control.  Repression is a method people seek in order to help them practice self control.  It's a poor method, and an ill guided one that leads to more problems.  You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

For a concrete example, my boyfriend and I know that cuddling is not sinful.  We also know that we can become slightly aroused just by being in the same room together.  However, this slight arousal isn't overbearing and we are capable of practicing self control.  We know that we wish to affirm our attraction to each other and we see nothing wrong with cuddling and kissing from time to time.  We again are capable of practicing self control.  But we know that if we cuddle for prolonged periods of time, especially in private areas, etc, that eventually we end up over stirring our passions.

It is at that point that we give into the temptation to repress our feelings for the sake of not giving up the behavior we think innocent.  What we have found is that in our relationship, asking how far is too far is the wrong question, though a tempting one to ask.  Rather we need to be honest with ourselves and each other as to when our conscience starts telling us we need to go out in public or call it a night and separate.  We still have other boundaries where we know that "Yep this is definitely the sexual sin."  But, its important to recognize when you're committing a sin against prudence by putting yourself in the near occasion of sin.

The rest is frequenting the sacraments.

[QUOTE]I would admit that they have a heavy cross to carry, but that cross can be an opportunity for their sanctification and purification and they thus can use it to become great saints.[/QUOTE

Ang,

I think there is a difference between picking up a cross and having someone drop one on our shoulders.

I don't know how serious you are about your boyfriend, but can you imagine how you would feel if you truly loved him, felt him to be your soul mate, a gift given to you by God, and were told by other humans you would never be allowed to marry him?