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Switch to Forum Live View California same sex marriage
6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 7:16PM #31
REteach
Posts: 13,556
The interesting thing about the US is that we have "checks and balances".  This is to prevent abuses by the majority.

You know, in a lot of the US colonies and then states, Catholics could not vote or hold public office!  The majorities, Protestants all, didn't think Catholics should have full citizenship.  You really want to go back to that?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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6 years ago  ::  May 29, 2008 - 9:14PM #32
mountain_man
Posts: 38,095

marbleartgirl wrote:

I guess my issue with this is a little bit different.  As a resident of San Francisco, I remember when we were asked to vote on Proposition 22 that defined marriage as being between a man and a woman.  The proposition passed by a 61 percent majority. .....


Would you hold the same position if 61% of the people voted to bring back slavery? There is this little concept that's in our constitution, that many forget about, that has something to do with protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority. What you are supporting is nothing better than mob rule.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 12:42AM #33
marbleartgirl
Posts: 27
Wow!  I like totally understand your posts!  I mean, we here in Cal so better understand what is right than everyone else in the country.  We should totally negate the majority vote!  We should over- rule everyone's opinion and totally assume that the people who are in the "middle of the country" or pick your minority (lets go with black or hispanic as they have been previously mentioned) have no idea of what is correct for the world.  Therefore, we should get the judges to tell the "uninformed" what is right.  Isn't that what a democracy is all about?  I guess that is why this country is so "undivided".  I guess that is why Gore lost in Fla.  I am so proud that the smart ones told us what we believed and re-elected Bush.  Thanks.  My bad- I totally thought that in the U.S. that someone's vote actually counted.  Ironically, the SF Chron. did a recent poll- the majority would have voted for same sex marriage.  And, ironically, without the lame judge over- rule we would have maybe had a re-vote, the same sex marriage would have won and the contentiousness would have gone the way of the buffalo.  But, instead, we here in Cal will be treated to months more of this lameness.  Not making a case for yourself.  But I appreciate your opinion.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 1:09AM #34
sistapoetry
Posts: 4
So you want to pick apart everything I said..I really don't care...Believe whatever you believe..I don't care...I still stand by my beliefs..and to the person that said that this church is in the dark ages and that most Catholics don't follow everything...I don't agree with everything about the Catholic church but there are somethings I stand strongly by...I am against abortion...I am against gay marriage..and I am for birth control..I am for birth control because so many people have more children than they should..and many women that aren't mentally capable of taking care of one child will continue to have like 15 babies...Use the birth control..I bet you would think differently about same sex marriage if these people were around your children...This world is pretty much on its way to hell in a hand basket...I am more open minded than you think...Morals are so out of the minds of people...I can't say that I'm perfect..because I have sinned and I have learned from many mistakes..but nobody is going to change my love for God..I've been through more than you know...most people if they lived my life..they would of killed themselves..God has gotten me through so much and I will not shut him out of everything I do..for no one...I have friends from many religions..even atheist people are my friends..I used to date someone that was muslim and planned to marry that person...There are some things that I stand by strongly ...Oh to the person that is from Puerto Rico..I'm not saying that civil rights is just about black people...I was just trying to make a point about something...but again if you want to dissect what I said just to amuse yourself..Go right ahead..I don't care...but you're wasting your time
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 1:30AM #35
sistapoetry
Posts: 4
Oh and let me say this...People might say "minority"..Its funny because people of color are the majority in America...Also for the person that says that the Catholic church doesn't teach that homosexuality is a sin...Um..what Bible are you reading exactly?....because I learned it was a sin when I went to private school as a little girl....I brought my disability up to make a point..and for you to say "sorry for that" after I said that It wasn't my choice to be born black..puleeze...What is my race a disease or something? No its not...OMG...This is one of the dumbest conversations I have ever had...@ Malanga..you sound like an atheist...I don't even understand why you want to call me self righteous..I spoke my opinion just like everyone else on here...I have the right to disagree if I want to...Maybe you reacted so strongly to my comment because you are gay..If you are gay then thats fine...live your life...I just don't agree with a priest marrying a gay couple...oh and if you remember..I said that I have respect for anyone that is gay..I just don't agree with them getting married..@Malanga...oh btw..How dare you?  To the person that said that I don't have the right to change the law..actually I do..I am not the kind of person that sits around and tries not to question my government...I have many rights..Also Malanga..since when is a ..if you want to use the word "minority"..in a superiority catagory..Do you even know American history?...I'm still laughing that someone says this isn't a sin..BTW..Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah...I don't think that I made those two names up..Its in the bible..that object that you probably haven't looked at in many years...Puleeze



    Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    —Jude 1:7
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 2:00AM #36
whiteknight
Posts: 1
Wow.  I never equated slavery with marriage.  I will admit divorce feels like forty lashes but give me a break- this isn't the great struggle against social injustice.  I have many sins which I would love to legitimize but in the end, there is a right and there is a wrong.  There is a light and there is a darkness.  All societies in history who have failed to maintain their moral compass have disintegrated into chaos.  What you do in your bedroom is of no interest to me.  The best part of Catholicism is its emphasis of separation of church and state.  Faith in God is not a democracy.  Christianity involves a belief system which was established 2000 years ago.  Live your life and make your peace with God but do not seek to bend God to your will.  C.S. Lewis was asked "Do you pray because you think you can change God?"  He replied,"  I do not pray to change God.  I pray to change me."
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 11:54AM #37
The_Maven
Posts: 372
[QUOTE=marbleartgirl;532487]Wow!  I like totally understand your posts!  I mean, we here in Cal so better understand what is right than everyone else in the country.  We should totally negate the majority vote!  We should over- rule everyone's opinion and totally assume that the people who are in the "middle of the country" or pick your minority (lets go with black or hispanic as they have been previously mentioned) have no idea of what is correct for the world.[/quote]

Are you talking about in 1948 when the California Supreme Court made their very unpopular decision to allow people of different races to marry?  Yes, that "overrode" the majority vote in California and the country. 

It wasn't until 1967 that the rest of the country had to give in and stop banning interracial marriages, although by then only about 16 states still had bans in their constitutions.  Most had removed the amendments or laws by then.  (If you look at the maps of which states banned same-sex marriage and which states banned interracial marriage, you'll find they generally are the same ones.)

If you want to live in a country with "majority rule," then it would not be the United States.  In this country, the minorities, whether they are minorities because of choice (like Catholics) or because of birth (like blacks), they have their rights protected, even if the majority would prefer these people did not have rights.



[QUOTE=marbleartgirl;532487]Therefore, we should get the judges to tell the "uninformed" what is right.  Isn't that what a democracy is all about?[/quote]

The United States is a republic, not a democracy.  Maybe I'm older than you, but in school we had to recite: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands…"  That should serve as a reminder, even if we don't remember learning about our government anywhere else.

What the judges do in the United States is determine whether or not laws comply with the existing Constitutions (state or federal).   




[QUOTE=marbleartgirl;532487]My bad- I totally thought that in the U.S. that someone's vote actually counted.[/quote]

You may want to do some study about the United States form of government, so that you better understand the process.  Your assumptions do appear uninformed.

There are some groups that argue we should have only majority rule.  They are, however, Protestant white supremacist groups.  They believe that blacks and Hispanics, Catholics, Jews, Muslims and others could have been "controlled" and "relocated" if the majority had always been able to enforce their views.  They are probably correct, and I'm glad for the balances in our system that prevented this.


 

[QUOTE=marbleartgirl;532487]Ironically, the SF Chron. did a recent poll- the majority would have voted for same sex marriage.  And, ironically, without the lame judge over- rule we would have maybe had a re-vote, the same sex marriage would have won and the contentiousness would have gone the way of the buffalo.  But, instead, we here in Cal will be treated to months more of this lameness.  Not making a case for yourself.  But I appreciate your opinion.[/QUOTE]

The vote will happen this fall, if the amendment has enough signatures.  Considering the millions of dollars paid to get those signatures, I am sure many people want the vote to happen.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 11:56AM #38
The_Maven
Posts: 372
[QUOTE=whiteknight;532552]All societies in history who have failed to maintain their moral compass have disintegrated into chaos.[/quote]

Most societies disintegrate after a period of time, including those who have displayed high morals.   

Many societies which have practiced polygamy, misogyny, racism and oppression against those who disagree with those in power have existed for a very long time. 

Is the measure of how "good" a society is, how long that society lasts?
 


[QUOTE=whiteknight;532552]The best part of Catholicism is its emphasis of separation of church and state.[/QUOTE]

How is this served when priests in the United States act as agents of the government by signing civil marriage documents?  In many countries, the priests only perform religious marriages and the civil governments perform civil marriages.  People can have both or either, as they choose.  Since the United States government is available to perform civil marriages, why does the Catholic Church in the United States still feel it must act as part of the government in marriage?

In the past, this led to the Catholic Church in the United States refusing to marry interracial couples when the civil government didn't permit those marriages.  That made the Catholic Church not separate from the state, but subservient to the state.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 11:58AM #39
The_Maven
Posts: 372
[QUOTE=sistapoetry;532534] Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah...I don't think that I made those two names up..Its in the bible..that object that you probably haven't looked at in many years...Puleeze


    Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    —Jude 1:7[/QUOTE]

Ezekiel 16:49 Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

In both Luke and Matthew, Jesus uses this story in relation to other places that have been inhospitable.

As God had already made the decision to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the angels were sent, the sin that led to the destruction is stated in Ezekiel.  By the way, "strange flesh" = angels according to Genesis, not humans of your own gender, which would be familiar flesh.

The really unfortunate part is that Ezekiel could, in many ways, be talking about people in the United States.  Overfed and overweight, spending our money on computers and internet access, while many around us in the world do without necessities.

Perhaps we need to focus our time and money more on caring for others than on denying legal rights to anyone.  How many people would the millions of dollars spent by religious groups (including Catholic groups) in the petition drive for this amendment have fed or housed?
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 12:40PM #40
malanga
Posts: 626

So you want to pick apart everything I said..I really don't care...Believe whatever you believe..I don't care



So why are you posting then?

I am against abortion...I am against gay marriage..and I am for birth control



I am against abortions and for birth control as well, so we can agree on two out of three.  :0)

I bet you would think differently about same sex marriage if these people were around your children



Some of these people are around my daughter. I am not worried.

I am more open minded than you think

 

Glad to hear that, now please show me.

Oh to the person that is from Puerto Rico..I'm not saying that civil rights is just about black people...I was just trying to make a point about something



And what was the point?  You never seem to make it.

.Also for the person that says that the Catholic church doesn't teach that homosexuality is a sin...Um..what Bible are you reading exactly?



What bible are YOU reading from?  The Catholic Church has taught that being a homosexual is not a sin, it is in engaging in homosexual activity that is the sin.  This concepts has escaped you apparently.  You can read more about this here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm

I brought my disability up to make a point..and for you to say "sorry for that" after I said that It wasn't my choice to be born black..puleeze...What is my race a disease or something?



I said sorry about the disability, not the color of your skin!  You need to actually read what I write and not jump to conclusions.

OMG...This is one of the dumbest conversations I have ever had



Agreed

@ Malanga..you sound like an atheist.



I am Catholic actually.

Maybe you reacted so strongly to my comment because you are gay



That would surprise my wife! LOL

I just don't agree with a priest marrying a gay couple



Neither do I.  When did I say I did?

oh and if you remember..I said that I have respect for anyone that is gay..I just don't agree with them getting married



We are talking about civil unions, not getting married in a Church.  Do you understand the difference?

Also Malanga..since when is a ..if you want to use the word "minority"..in a superiority catagory.



You lost me, what are you talking about?

Do you even know American history?



I took two semester in college.  What did you study?

I'm still laughing that someone says this isn't a sin..BTW..Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah...I don't think that I made those two names up..Its in the bible..that object that you probably haven't looked at in many years...Puleeze



I guess that makes two of us who haven’t looked in years!  But seriously, you do not seem to understand the difference between a civil union and a marriage in the church.  What is being discussed is the right for gay people to have a civil union, which is basically a legal contract.  As far as I can tell, no one here is urging the Catholic Church to perform same-sex marriages.

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