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Switch to Forum Live View California same sex marriage
6 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2008 - 12:55AM #71
espiritus85
Posts: 134

MatthewJ wrote:

The quick answer is: read Aristotle's Politics, Book I, the first 3 chapters or so. You will see that on the basis of philosophy, not religion, he argues that marriage and the family built around it are much as the Evangelicals say: it [marriage] has always been between a man and a woman, and is the foundation for human society, since that is where children first learn how to interact with other people.



which children?

MatthewJ wrote:

Because of this, it has an enormous influence on how children then interact with people for the rest of their life. That is why children being brought up in a family with "two dads" really are missing out on something.



Then if it has this "enormous influence", you should have NO problem pointing it out. Secondly, since this "influence" is based on one's parents being male and female, it should be uniform in all people with a mother and father. Feel free to elaborate.

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6 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2008 - 11:53AM #72
REteach
Posts: 14,590
[QUOTE=MatthewJ;563759]Oh, you guys! I have read Ezekiel and I am not seeing what you say I should see there. I _do_ see mention of Sodom's sin. It does not actually say what it is, but it is highly reasonable to assume it is homosexuality, especially the homosexual rape attempt.

Remember that the prophet could assume his hearers knew Gen 18 very well.[/QUOTE]

Ezekiel 16:49
" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

This sounds pretty exact to me--to anyone who really wants to hear God's word, anyway.  Those who want to persist in their own delusions can and do ignore it. Arrogant and not helping the poor and needy has nothing to do with oral sex. 

Also, the American Academy of Pediatrics, people who care for kids because they care for kids, say that children of gay couples do just as well as other kids, although they may be more tolerant of others and they may get picked on more.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2008 - 1:09PM #73
JonAtFaithUCC
Posts: 294
[QUOTE=MatthewJ;563755]The quick answer is: read Aristotle's Politics, Book I, the first 3 chapters or so. You will see that on the basis of philosophy, not religion, he argues that marriage and the family built around it are much as the Evangelicals say: it [marriage] has always been between a man and a woman, and is the foundation for human society, since that is where children first learn how to interact with other people.

Because of this, it has an enormous influence on how children then interact with people for the rest of their life. That is why children being brought up in a family with "two dads" really are missing out on something.

The RCCC says something similar (I forget exactly where), but neither does it rely on purely religious arguments. The philosophical influence of Aristotle (through Aquinas) is still felt there.[/QUOTE]

Matt, why infuse your argument with an implied element of disrespect?  My kids have two dads, not "two dads".
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2008 - 11:42PM #74
JohnQ
Posts: 5,638

MatthewJ wrote:

The quick answer is: read Aristotle's Politics, Book I, the first 3 chapters or so. You will see that on the basis of philosophy, not religion, he argues that marriage and the family built around it are much as the Evangelicals say: it [marriage] has always been between a man and a woman, and is the foundation for human society, since that is where children first learn how to interact with other people.

Because of this, it has an enormous influence on how children then interact with people for the rest of their life. That is why children being brought up in a family with "two dads" really are missing out on something.

The RCCC says something similar (I forget exactly where), but neither does it rely on purely religious arguments. The philosophical influence of Aristotle (through Aquinas) is still felt there.



Matt-
I too am curious as to what "enormous influence" specifically means to you.

That said, does your theory still hold with the fact that all males (dads) are not all the same....likewise all females (moms) are not the same.  Some are more sensitive...others more insensitive.  Some are more physically oriented....others more mentally oriented.  etc

BTW, our kids also have two dads....not "two dads".  And, they are doing so much better in our nurturing home than they did with their biological mom and biological dad.  For although they were of mixed genders (which you suggest are necessary for kids).......for whatever reason mom and dad did not seem to have an obligation to care for the kids.  Things like providing a stable place to live, food, clean clothes, and knowledge such as teaching them to talk, count, the alphabet, etc apparently were just a little to much to provide.  But....they were male and female.

Peace!                 
------

Christian LIES wed Christian HATE......Begot a child....it’s named Prop 8! 

Supreme Court let it stand.....which means we can vote away the rights of others in our land.

Sad as that may be...it hurts all of us.....not just me.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 7:06PM #75
Amolibri
Posts: 19
[QUOTE=LadyoftheWest;505950]yay for the civils rights movement....whatever. As a catholic, i don't feel i can support this while knowing the church's view on marriage. But let me point this out. This is not the final point that homosexual people will demand. Soon they will start demanding that they their marriage be officiated in churches that are against gay marriage. They will demand the Church to recognize their marriage, which we cannot.[/QUOTE]

Huh???  Sorry, but this is pure paranoia, IMO.  Why would a church be forced to recognize anything????  Doesn't make sense.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 7:43PM #76
Zachguy18
Posts: 191
Why would we WANT to be married in a church that doesn't like gay marriage?

Revenge?  That's a little stupid, IMO.  Marriage is such a complex thing (especially legally) that if we trusted a church that didn't like gay marriage to, well, give us marriage... you might mess it up out of spite.

Not to mention the pure tension in the air, ugh.

You have no need to fear.  I think.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 9:06AM #77
ambientindigochild
Posts: 23
I don't see why this is such a big deal.  If two people love each other, they should be able to get married.  Religion should have no play in this unless the couple wants it to be.  You've got to realize that not everyone is a Christian and follows what Christians believe.  So pressing your beliefs in their face isnt going to keep them from being gay or lesbian, nor it it going to make them change their mind of how they feel about their partner.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 11:16PM #78
urbanboy
Posts: 1
I thought you might all think this an interesting read:
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 11:13AM #79
REteach
Posts: 14,590
Ironic, given how many Christians don't think Mormons are anything but another crazy sect.  The anniversary of Joseph Smith's death at the hands of a mob was just this last week.  One might think the Mormons could have learned something from their own history of persecution.

For that matter, Catholics were persecuted in the US colonies as well. Still more failure to get that whole "Do unto others" thing.

Jesus was a genius, too bad we can't learn from him.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:51PM #80
Zachguy18
Posts: 191
[QUOTE=REteach;592617]Ironic, given how many Christians don't think Mormons are anything but another crazy sect.  The anniversary of Joseph Smith's death at the hands of a mob was just this last week.  One might think the Mormons could have learned something from their own history of persecution.

For that matter, Catholics were persecuted in the US colonies as well. Still more failure to get that whole "Do unto others" thing.

Jesus was a genius, too bad we can't learn from him.[/QUOTE]

I actually tend to think Mormonism is a little ridiculous, but I'm not sure about cult-lke.  Especially since there's similar horror stories for Wiccans, and... honestly, my personal experience has shown me that those horror stories are basically fundamentalist fabrications designed to color something entirely different from what it is.

EDIT: And there I go, finishing before I actually address the point of your post.

Yeah, I'm starting to think that the best people for persecuting Christians are, ironically, Christians.
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