[QUOTE=cultresearcher;253094]I will refuse to move due the mexicans taking over.  I think we should put a sign at the border that says no vacancy.
I AM AN AMERICAN BY BIRTH AND I REFUSE TO MOVE OR TO LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE JUST TO GET A JOB THAT PAYS GOOD.  THAT IS DISCRIMATION IN MY BOOK.  IF A JOB REQUIRES YOU TO SPEAK SPANISH OR ANOTHER FOREIGN LANGUAGE THAT EMPLOYER SHOULD BE SUED FOR DISCRIMATION.  THAT WOULD BE TREASON IN MY BOOK AS WELL AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED LIKE THE CONSTITUTION SAYS.:mad:[/QUOTE]

Life is unfair. Have you noticed? My point is not, is it right or wrong that you should have to learn to speak Spanish. My point is that if that's what's required to better yourself, you can either do it, or remain as you are, your choice. You live outside Chicago by the way, not San Diego or El Paso, so my guess is the jobs you are competing for are those that require no education at all and the reason illegals get them is not because they speak Spanish, but because they work for less than minimum wage. I might recommend my former employer in North Chicago, Ill. Just look in the phone book for US Navy.

[QUOTE=cultresearcher;253094]I will refuse to move due the mexicans taking over.  I think we should put a sign at the border that says no vacancy.
I AM AN AMERICAN BY BIRTH AND I REFUSE TO MOVE OR TO LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE JUST TO GET A JOB THAT PAYS GOOD.  THAT IS DISCRIMATION IN MY BOOK.  IF A JOB REQUIRES YOU TO SPEAK SPANISH OR ANOTHER FOREIGN LANGUAGE THAT EMPLOYER SHOULD BE SUED FOR DISCRIMATION.  THAT WOULD BE TREASON IN MY BOOK AS WELL AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED LIKE THE CONSTITUTION SAYS.:mad:[/QUOTE]


What happened to the notion of doing whatever it takes to support one’s family-esp. when one believes the husband is sole provider? I don’t see how complaining about the realities pays the rent. 

Sounds like those unfairly labeled “bottom feeders”, those willing to learn a second language and those willing to take whatever job is offered to them are fulfilling that obligation (assuming this is their belief).  Gotta admire folks like this. No matter what, they will bring home the paycheck. 

Irene.

[QUOTE=Beautiful_Dreamer;254418]I agree that your average Hispanic immigrant is very hard-working and certainly not a 'bottom-feeder'.  When I worked in a furniture store that had payment plans, the Hispanic customers were usually really good about paying the bills on time. Not to stereotype, but they are certainly not all 'a drain', as I have heard some say. You will find lazy people in any nationality. And what if they are from a country whose government is basically corrupt or nonexistent (i.e. Cuba) and really can't do very well where they are from? I believe that some immigrants (like Cubans) are given a different status than your general immigrant because of the conditions of the country they come from, and many from other places are granted asylum on an individual basis because of circumstances in their country of origin.  And this hasn't always been done to the point that it should have (I am thinking of refugees from Nazi Germany. Read the third paragraph down. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005139) .The point is, you just cannot assume that every immigrant is illegal or does not intent to support themselves. Remember, unless you are fully Native American, you are here because someone emigrated too.

And exactly what is a 'bottom feeder'? is it someone on government assistance? Because I know a lot of people who have been on some sort of assistance, and they get it because they really do need it and not because they are lazy. Half the time they work two or three jobs and still can't pay the bills because they have kids or are single or some other circumstance that isn't always in their control (like outstanding medical bills or something).  They would take whatever opportunity to better themselves (like going to school) in a heartbeat, but sometimes that option is not available or there are more pressing needs to be attended to. I believe that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy, but don't quote me on that.  Anyone can have a setback at any time-my life has been proof of that, and I have actually been one of the lucky ones.  Most of the people I have come into contact with only use the assistance for the time that they need it and have a goal to get off of it, so it is not a 'way of life' for them. Sure, there are people who get benefits because they do not want to work, but that is not the case for a good number of people. So you cannot assume that. It could just as easily be you who needs the help one day.[/QUOTE] I will shoot myself in the head before I will violate the way I was raised.  I was raised that If you asked for help you were worthy of the death penalty for treason.  A man is ALWAYS HARD WORKING HE WILL WORK UNTIL HE IS LAYING DEAD IN HIS GRAVE.  He never asks for help from anyone.  That is old school mentality.

[QUOTE=hm2menger;171891]On another thread here, mention was made about one poster not being a "Real Man". As a man, and more frequently as a boy, I've often heard one man call another's manhood into question. While many people have varying opinions on what a "Real Man" isn't, you rarely hear anyone state that someone is "a Real Man".

On the same thread MilesB commented that he felt part of our problem with this as a modern society stemmed from our lack of manhood/coming of age ritual so common in tribal societies, and I think he's probably right.

But this set me to thinking, it's my perception that women much less frequently question each others "Real Womanhood", at least that's how I, (as a man) perceive it. Am I right? I don't think I've even seen straight women question the "Real Womanhood" of lesbians, which among men is often the essence of the challenge to another's masculinity.

Anyway, what do the women think? What do other men think?[/QUOTE]

Hello. I think most of this "real man"/real woman rhetoric is just that.  I assume you are talking about heterosexual males and that heterosexual males and their most outwardly aggressive behavior is considered "manly".  Other attributes attributed to heterosexual men is confidence, risk taking, financial success, ability to acquire resources to support a family, etc. This would also assume that a homosexual male will have feminine attributes like passiveness, empathy, compassion, etc.  You can reverse these for female gender roles. Well, the truth in short that we all vary in terms of these attributes whether we are male of female and their is a gradient. This gradient doesn't necessarily make us homosexual or heterosexual. We can fall into either category and having "feminine" characteristics or "masculine" ones, do not dictate one's sexuality.  For more on this sexuality scale you can look up the is "Kinsey scale" which assigns and grades sexual orientation. I won't get into to much of that because it is a study unto itself. I am just going to assume that you are heterosexual for the sake of argument. Now, both men and woman can be emotional, aggressive, compassionate, empathetic, confident, shy, assertive, etc. Just because a woman approaches a man for a date doesn't mean that her assertiveness will be perceived as masculine by the male. Indeed most men are shy and welcome it. I should know I am shy myself. Does this mean that I cannot defend her and care for her or most importantly, defend and care for myself? Of course not.  A healthy man or woman will try their best to survive. The question of gender roles should be irrelevant in a healthy relationship because both should compliment each other.  In Chinese Philosophy, there is a dialectic, a dualism of opposing but complimentary forces. We know them in the west as Yin and Yang, feminine and masculine. However these are not set in stone and constantly adjust to "balance" out the other and nature. You can see this in Martial Arts systems and in simple push and pull physics.  Our energy should help the other partner whether it's being a little forceful when needed or passive as well.  The bottom line is, don't get caught up in these "gender roles" dictated by society and whether one is man enough, surviving makes you a man.  Empathy, usually considered a feminine trait, is a manly trait when you consider that it helps you defend the weak and defenseless.  Jesus Christ defended prostitutes, beggars, and the sick. Was he not a man?  Some say he is even God. Would "God" not view a man as his son just because he is shy and society rejects him as a man?  Why can't a man be humble?  "The meek shall inherit the earth" the Bible says, right?  Likewise, why can't a woman defend herself and her family as well.  Human beings take the longest to reach adult hood compared to any other mammal.  It takes two parents who will invest care and time with the child to bring him/her up emotionally and physically healthy.  It is survival pure and simple. We all should be free to be ourselves and discard our judgmental ways and need to assign labels and control others. We should help each other reach their full potential no matter what end of the "scale" they lean towards.  Peace and good luck.

FYI.
In some cultures the woman is dominant and can even have many husbands.  In other cultures like the pygmies of central African, their is no social hierarchy. The man does do the hunting and the woman prepares the food and cares for the young but the woman and the children eat first.  No male dominance.  Again, it's all about survival.

[QUOTE=hm2menger;256621]Lion, do you mind if I call you Lion? You can call me HM (never H2, Please, I hate SUVs). Thank you so much for bringing us back on topic! Of course you are right about sex roles, and also in your assumption that I am heterosexual. What promted the topic in the first place was the statement of another member that I must not be a "real man" because I'm a nurse. What I'm hoping to explore, more so than gender roles, is why it is that women don't seem to judge each other's "real womanhood" the way we men judge each other's "real manhood" or if they do and I as a man just don't see it. We did get WAY of track and once again thank you for bringing us back.

So anyway, any further thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I personally think that nursing is a noble profession and it is a science as well.  I feel it integrates many sciences(social, chemical, etc).  It also takes a spiritual soul, or a connection to others, in my opinion to be a nurse.  Actually, we need more male nurses.  Can a woman help lift a 300 lb person or give advice on pain management from a male perspective? Of course not, however she can bring her tools to the job whatever they may be.  Nowadays Pysicians couldn't do their job without the aid and expertice of nurses. When I was taking Biology courses, I myself considered being a nurse. You actaully take some of the same courses as Doctors.  Nursing has definately changed as a profession and you have to have many skills.  Not everyone can be a nurse so I applaud you for doing what you do.  The reason why woman dominated nursing was because of the "agencies of socialization" like family, school, and communication(media) geared woman toward that profession with the aid of the generalization and sterotype that "all women are caring and nurturing".

"In many other cases, the elements of convention or tradition seem to play a dominant role in deciding which occupations fit in with which gender roles. In the United States, physicians have traditionally been men, and the few people who defied that expectation received a special job description: "woman doctor". Similarly, there are special terms like "male nurse", "woman lawyer", "lady barber", "male secretary," etc. But in China and the former Soviet Union countries, medical doctors are predominantly women, and in Germany and Taiwan it is very common for all of the barbers in a barber shop to be women. Also, throughout history, some jobs that have been typically male or female have switched genders. For example, clerical jobs. Clerical jobs used to be considered a man's job, but when several women began filling men's job positions due to World War II, clerical jobs quickly became dominated by women. It became more feminized, and women workers became known as "typewriters" or "secretaries". There are many other jobs that have switched gender roles, and many jobs are continually evolving as far as being dominated by women or men."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role

In addition, unless one lives in a cave, the average person knows that woman can be just as uncaring, cold, and ruthless, and aggressive as any man. However, in most cases, they don't have the social or economic power needed to carry out agendas that affect populations because of those same gender allocations dictated by whatever society dominates.  In my humble opinion, I feel that the reason that woman don't question another's "womanhood" generally is prescisly because we do live in a male domainated society and most of the time their issues get lumped togther and focused on without aknowledging that men may have some or same issues.  For example, it the generic statement, "men aren't supposed to show their feelings", it can socialize people into believeing that men aren't thinking and emotional beings.  Educated people know this is totally wrong.  We can show love and compassion just as good as any woman and we shouldn't let people in any society dictate our natural tendicies as human beings. As you have seen this can have disatouraous effects on young males lately, like the horrible situtaions at Columbine and Virginia Tech.  It makes me think about how many people are in jail or dead because they weren't allowed to express themselves and share their feelings and thoughts.  We all have the right to think and be who we are as long as we respect others people's lives.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  As for the person who said that you are not a "real man" well I personally think that it is an ignorant statement and an attack on someones character.  They should be banned from this site and they should be ashamed of themselves for bringing that negativity to a place where we are supposed to respect our spiritual nature and those of others.  It is cowardly to attack people online in my opinion so don't worry about them, they probably won't last long or gain allot of friends that are supportive.  It's interesting because in my jujitsu class, we often get these guys coming in who are hyper-masculine, overly aggressive, cocky, and who people may perceive as "real men".  They come in and want to injure everyone they spar with but when they get submitted be a smaller opponent who is at least 70lbs lighter, they either get humble or never come back.  Those that stay and don't respect the school and other members who they train with promptly get kicked out.  We don't need insecure hyper-masculine morons in a place of discipline and honor.  Oh, and yes, woman train in jiujitsu too.  Good luck with everything and stay strong in who you are.  Peace.