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Switch to Forum Live View Trying to cope with guilt - Christians living together...
4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 6:54AM #1
rachel219
Posts: 30

Hi All,


I have been engaged for over a year.  I have been living with my fiance for over a year.  I don't know what to do.  I feel guilty when we are sexually intimate, yet I want to feel desired by my fiance as well without having to be sexually intimate.  Does that make sense?


It seems we have become, I dont' even know how to describe it.  Like there is no desire.  Like "whatever".  Like the bedroom is just nothing anymore.  He caresses me a little before falling off to sleep, but it's not like a prelude to making love.  I'm so confused. 


I want my fiance to desire me.  Desire me enough like a husband desires his wife, but because we are not married yet, we both sometimes feel guilty about being intimate.  Sometimes I think we are just doing it recently just because he is horney and I don't want him going after other women.  He watches all these reality shows where there are several volumptious women competing for one guy.  I get jealous sometimes of these shows and I have told him so.  He blows me off and tells me that is my insecurity.  I ask him why he watches them.  He finally told me one day "it's men's entertainment".  I didn't like that answer.  I fix myself up everyday (hair, makeup, shapely clothing that he likes), yet, I feel whenever there is a music video with young girls shaking their booty and boobies, or one of those reality shows are on TV where several females are competing for one male , I feel that he is getting his eye candy and maybe subconciously comparing me to these women.  They are all beautiful, young, shapely women showing lots of cleavage and booty, and sounding all sincere and sensitive and just wanting to please and love this one guy. 


I have a nice figure.  I am smaller on the top then on the bottom, but I am tall and slim and I look for my age.  He told me once I wasn't proportional.  That hurt. 


However, I can not compete with all these women who all look the same and seem to be willing to do anything to get the guy on the show.  My fiance sometimes gets upset with me and tells me he isn't doing anything wrong and that he is faithful and loyal, yet he makes statements about my breasts saying "those little things" or "itty bitties".  That hurts.  I NEVER say anything negative about his body.  NEVER.  He knows how I feel about my body, that I want to please him, where my insecurities are.  Yet, when he is watching those music videos and those reality shows, I just get turned off == meaning I'm thinking he may be fantasing about those girls and then when he is with me after they go off.  He sometimes gets all affectionate while watching them. 


Now, I've tried to reason it all that maybe he is reassuring me when he gets all affectionate.  Like "hey, I'm with you and I find you attractive.  You don't have to worry about them."  But that affection only happens during a commercial.  When the show is on, I'm let be.  It makes me wonder if he is turned on by the idea of the show, the eye candy being shown and just touches my breasts or butt because I'm around.  After all, if you close your eyes, you don't have to realize who you are touching.  You can be in your own little world.


We have been together intimately for over 2 years.  I had been celibate for eight years before I met him.  Not that I didn't have opportunity.  I just wanted to wait on my husband.  I told him this when we first started talking and his response was "well, I guess we will have to get married then."  I didn't believe him at first.  Who hasn't heard that before when the guy wants something? 


At any rate, I have felt guilty about our intimacy and have tried to make peace with it.  He recently told me that sometimes he feels guilty as well afterwards. Not all the time, but sometimes. 


During the whole two years, he never said my name while making love.  Not once.  I hear the generic "oh baby."  To me, after two years, I need to hear him say my name so that he KNOWS who he is making love to.  That "oh baby" is so general and its a safety net both men and women can use so that they don't make a mistake and call out the wrong person's name during the act!  I have said his name, told him I love him and other things.  But I don't get that from him.


I'm feeling like he isn't really all that in love with me.  He is a scorpio and I am a Pisces.  I know astrology is not the best gauge, but let's face it.  If you know anything about it, the former is supposed to be very passionate.  I get passion when he is yelling at me (I yell back, yes, I do), not so much when making love.


I am sad and I just don't know what to do.  I don't feel desireable to him.  I wear little nighties to bed, nothing.  He told me once I don't come to bed like a married woman -- I would wear long pajama bottoms and a little top because that was all I had.  He has never bought me any lingerie.  Wouldn't you think he would?  He buys me every other piece of clothing, except underwear and bras.  I tend to think he doesn't buy me lingerie because I wouldn't look sexy in it.  At least not as sexy as the women on TV.  Even when we are out together, if an attractive, shapely woman passes by, he will check her out.  If he is in the car, he will check the rearview mirror to check out her behind, and I am sitting right there in the car.  He will deny it from now to kingdom come, though, and that is what hurts very much as well.


I guess I sound all whiney and everything.  I just want to be loved and desired solely by my mate.  If he doesn't want me, if I don't please him, then he should just let me go.


I get depressed.  I'm up now typing this post.  If he ever read it, he would be very upset with me.  He never understands, which is also surprising to me because I have poured my heart and soul out to him hoping he would try to understand.  What I get in return 98% of the time is an open rebuke.  He gets very offended and makes me feel that I so selfish and that everything is all about me.  Well, when we first started dating, up until over a year, he used to always say to me "It's all about you.  It's all about you.  I'm only here to make you happy."  I tried to explain to him that I am not like that and it is all about "us".  He does not have the burden or responsibility to make me happy.  That would be too much to put on anyone.  We are all responsible for our own happiness.


At any rate, I am feeling lonely and like "I just live here." 


I'll quit now.  I welcome all replies.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 7:09AM #2
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

First, if you feel guilty about shacking up...Don't do it.  Simple as that. 


Second, no one is passionate or has sex all the time after they've been together for awhile.  The "new" has worn off your pretend marriage and your BOYFRIEND, don't call him a fiance once you moved in you pretty much confirmed you were willing to shack up and never have a legitimate marriage or kids, for that matter, is just comfortable.  It doesn't mean he doesn't find you attractive, it means you're so easily accessible that he knows he doesn't have to work for it any more.


He may also be picking up on your guilty feelings.


Tell me, if you feel so guilty why did you shack up in the first place?  Is any person worth making yourself feel cheap and guilty?

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 10:07AM #3
Tolerant Sis
Posts: 4,201

Q.  What is the cure for unbridled lust?


A.  Marriage.


The fire in a relationship cools down after a relationship becomes permanent for a number of evolutionary reasons, but it does cool down.  First, no one is trying to impress anyone else; it is hard to get all fluttery when you are picking up each other's dirty underwear and changing the other's spark plugs.  


In short, you've moved into domesticity at this point.  Husbands don't generally 'desire' their wives 24/7.  Wives don't generally 'desire' their husbands 24/7, either.  It does cycle up again a couple of times, but for the most part, what you have is what you'll get.


There are good reasons for affianced couples to live together (financial reasons, school reasons, whatever) but sex is generally not one of them.  It's hard to get hot and bothered on Saturday night when you've spent Saturday doing laundry and yard chores, going grocery shopping, bathing the dog, and maybe falling asleep in front of a Netflix movie.  When you have kids it will be even less appealing.  


As far as calling your name, men are thinking about other things when they're into it; I wouldn't read much into that.  


When is the wedding? You might want to try a period of abstinence right before to get everybody back into the 'brand new' mood.

First amendment fan since 1793.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 10:47AM #4
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407

Rachel,

Welcome to the Marriage & Relationships Forum - and sorry for the pain in your relationship that brought you here. This is generally a very supporting place, which is not to say that you won't encounter some criticism, hopefully meant to be 'constructive.' Regardless, if someone writes something that resonates with you, then consider it; if not, then leave it.

There is so much going on in what you have so courageously shared. May I suggest that for now it might be more fruitful to focus on yourself than on your fiance for the time being in the sense of getting clear about what is and is not acceptable. For example, when you hear criticism of your body, exploring and getting in touch with all the of the thoughts and feelings that come up for you. It hurts to be given the message that you are somehow not attractive to the man you love and who loves you.

Also, consider that men tend to be very visual and fantasize a lot - hence the popularity of these shows (which are very close to softcore porn). It is not unusual for a man to become aroused by that - as long as all the affections are directed towards his partner (for women, it seems that things like romance novels serve a similar purpose). The issue here is one of courtesy - it is one thing to find other women attractive, and that is true of all men; it is quite another to openly ogle another woman in the presence of one's partner. Perhaps he is trying to do it without your noticing, which is at least something. What can't be changed is the fact that he will find other women attractive. It is worthwhile to examine your own feelings and perhaps discern if this is another manifestation of what is going on inside you. Of course you could always give a dose of his own medicine and visible check out hot guys yourself when you are out!

The problem here is that as his desire increases from these shows, yours decreases. This is another area where it would be useful to explore your own feelings and judgments. Perhaps you are indeed feeling unattractive or insecure about yourself, and these are being triggered. 

Don't assume that he knows your thoughts and feelings - even if they have been expressed, having them received and understood is a different matter. Try to express to him in a way that doesn't blame or criticize - that way it may be possible for him to get what you are saying.

Unlike a previous poster, I believe that it is very difficult to put the sexual genie back in the bottle once it is out. There is of course the double-twist here - on the one hand, you feel guilty about having sex when you are not married, and on the other you are unfulfilled and unhappy in your sex life as well. Here as well, communication is key. Sharing thoughts and feelings about sex is perhaps the most difficult thing a couple can do, and yet it makes all the difference in the world. Intimacy is in fact not about the sexual act but rather about this sharing of oneself - thoughts and feelings - with a partner and being accepted for who you are, while accepting him for who he is. Although you may have tried this, my guess is that he has felt blamed or criticized when that happens. Communication is one of the the most important elements in any relationship, and if that is not possible, then the long-term prospects are unfortunately not good ones.

I hope that you find the feedback here helpful in your difficult situation.

Blessings,
Arnie


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2010 - 4:10PM #5
Hatman
Posts: 9,634

Rachel-


i'm sorry for his insensitivity to your feelings, and how he treats you like a pet(attentive during commercials?  Goes back to the idiot box after?  Oy).


As to his looking at other women, that is natural for most men; one of the best ways i've heard one wife deal with it was her telling him, 'I don't mind if you window-shop, but if you go in to buy, you're gonna stay."


i do tend to agree with previous posters; engaging in a sexual relationship outside of marriage is fornication, no doubt about it.  This probably accounts for the guilty feelings, and the pleasure you received during the act(s) is likely a multiplier, too.  And, it's addictive.  So you cycle between desire, enjoyment, and guilt?  If you ever get to the point where the guilt is stronger than the desire and enjoyment, then you know how to end the guilt; stop engaging in sexual acts until you ARE a married woman.


i also agree that a time of abstinence before the marriage takes place would also be helpful.  It may even be best to move out completely, and leave him to his fantasies.  During that time, if he proves unfaithful, if he doesn't miss you and what you do for him, you'll know what no matter how much you may love him, he's not marriage material.  And that whole comparing you to other women and denigrating parts of your body thing?  You need to nip that bs in the bud immediately, maybe telling him that if he thinks your body is not good enough for him, then he needs to go find someone closer to his ideal---and/or tell him that women's bodies change all the time, so get used to it and deal with it kindly, or move on.


Frankly, he sounds like a clod and a user, to me; if a woman was to treat me like he's treating you, i'd dump her in a hot second, like i'd just been burned by a stove top.


"Giving someone a second chance" is fine and dandy, and honesty is to be appreciated, but honesty that is given in a way to deliberately hurt or belittle another is unkind.  Personally, i reject any woman who treats me unkindly, especially while dating. 


Believe me when i tell you that any and all traits you find unattractive/repulsive NOW will NOT get better after marriage, but WORSE.  So if you really love him, get him to agree to counseling/therapy NOW, and test him afterwards to see if he "gets it."  If he resents the counseling/therapy/therapist, and does NOT treat you with more kindness and respect as a result, then dump his dumb behind.  Shoot, even volunteer to go WITH him, if needed.


Apologies for being so blunt.  "Men" like your bf/fiancé irritate me no end, especially the women who love them and put up with that crap from them when they should NEVER do so.  EVER.


Couldn't tell ya how many times i've comforted and sheltered women who've been BEATEN by their bf's, who tell me everything the bf did to them, how they hate them and why---then go right back for more of the same.  Frankly, don't get it, although i have a few guesses.


At any rate, here's some advice you should memorize and apply to every area of your life every day:  "You teach other people how to treat you by what you will or WILL NOT accept."


Let that sink in.  Write it down on several pieces of paper, and put them where you'll see them often---bathroom mirror, refrigerator door, back of the door you usually exit from, etc.


Warmest regards-


Hatman

"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 7:25PM #6
rachel219
Posts: 30

First, thank you all for replying with your insight and understanding.  I truly appreciate this. 


After reading my post, it seems that I am targeting most of it on sexual intimacy and attraction.  While that is one of the expressions and/or result I would like, I'm realizing I mean something deeper.  Meaning, those acts are results of being in the inner place I want to abide in and belong to in my husband.  If I am not "there" in his heart & mind, then those "acts" will have no meaning or permenance.  My participation is not distinguishable from others (women) of the same category (sexual intimacy).


I truly don't know how else to gauge whether my fiance truly loves me.  I don't need anything from him.  I don't really want anything else from him but his love.  If I have that, then everything else is a result of it, not to take its place. 


We disagree over things he wants to do that I don't feel right about doing.  I have been proven right EVERY time I have expressed to him my thoughts and feelings about what he wanted to do, and he has never acknowledged it, even though the result has ALWAYS blow up in our faces to prove my point.  Now I am in some real trouble, and FINALLY, he gets it.  Why did it have to get this point?


I have allowed things to happen in this engagement that have hurt me emotionally and financially.  All in the name of "love".  Meaning, me wanting him to love me and me showing him that I love him, am willing to trust him so that he will give me his love. 


I have no one to blame but myself, and I am not asking anyone here to look at this situation otherwise.  Perhaps I am gullible or more needy than I realized.  I have always been independent, but moreso, because I HAD to be, not necessarily because I wanted to be. 


A little more history:  I've been on my own since 20 and prior to that, I lived at home.  I took care of my sick mother.  My father had lost his job, and worked odd jobs.  All through high school, I worked fulltime summers and in my senior year, I worked fulltime.  I am very family-oriented person because I always valued that sense of belonging and togetherness.  To me, if you have family, you are never alone, someone will always need you and accept you, and you have each other's back, no matter what. 


After my mom's death, I took care of other siblings.  It wasn't long before my father remarried and we (myself and sibling) had to move out.  Our house was lost to sherrif sale and I found myself and my siblings homeless.  Long story short, I felt my life was cut short and I was forced to face that.  There was no "going home".  The will never be a "going home" for me.  I wasn't ready for that.  Even though I always carried a sense of responsibility.  Being without that sense of family, life was difficult because I was a homebody and I loved my family and family life. 


At any rate, from that day to this, I have longed for family.  Longed for the sense of unconditional love and security (as much as that could happen) and the sense of "belonging" somewhere and to someone.  I am not looking for a mother or father, I had that, so don't get me wrong.  Marriage is like having a family.  You belong to each other.  You love and accept each other and have each other's back.


So I'm thinking now as I am writing this, that maybe I am needy.  Wow, I never thought I was, because I have worked all my life, been a single mom, and tried to be a responsible person.  I can take care of myself and proven that I can take care of others.


But as time passes, I have to come to know that I need to feel loved and respected and accepted.  Does that make a person needy?  Maybe I need to love and respect and accept myself?  But isn't that being selfish?  Just thinking about myself? 


Folks, I really am struggling with this.  I need wisdom to get balance here.  For several years, I dedicated my life to God because I knew He loved and accepted me always.  He would never leave me nor forsake me.  I could count on God to always be there for me, no matter what.  I didn't have that anywhere or with anyone else.  So my physical body or attractiveness didn't matter to Him.  Yes, I do take care of myself, but even if my body was ravaged with sickness so that my physical appearance wasn't as pleasant, I knew God would always love me, comfort me and never leave.


I know I am getting deep here.  I just want to give you guys as much of the picture as I can while staying in line with my original post. 


I guess the keyword I used here is "husband".  My fiance is not my husband yet.  That covenant is not there.  I don't know when it will be, since the date of the wedding is no longer solely mine to make like it used to be... more on that in another post reply.


I will reply to each post here.  I wanted to share that first, just to give you guys more information about me.  I do value your responses.


Rachel


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 7:29PM #7
rachel219
Posts: 30

tmarie,


"your pretend marriage and your BOYFRIEND, don't call him a fiance once you moved in you pretty much confirmed you were willing to shack up and never have a legitimate marriage or kids,"


He is my fiance.  He asked me to marry him in Dec 2008 and I having been wearing an engagement ring ever since.  We both  wear engagement rings. 


We are both in our late 40s, we are done having children and they are all over 18 years old and either in college or married (he was married before and his children are older than mine because he married very young).  I have never been married, engaged twice, but it did not pan out.  However, I have never lived with a man before in my life until now (other than my father and brothers).


Perhaps I sound young in my post because it has been almost 20 years that I was in a serious relationship.  I've had two short-term relationships, one I thought could be serious, the other was just out want of companionship.  Before meeting my fiance, I made a covenant with God that I would remain celibate until I was married and God would be my husband.  That was in 2000.  I was never intimate with anyone until summer of 2008 when I became intimate with my now fiance.


I compromised my covenant with God.  I have no one to blame but myself, and I don't blame him and have told him several times.  I wanted him (my fiance) to love me.  I know, I was stupid.  Making love to someone doesn't mean they love you, right?  Isn't that what we tell our daughters? 


Me, being a woman in her late 40's ought to know better, especially since I know most men will always want to share intimacy (whether it's sex or making love, you decide), with someone they desire or develop sensual (or romantic, in the meaningful cases) feelings for, and vice versa. 


I was a weak woman, and I still am to some degree when comes to him.  I didn't use wisdom or restraint.  I believed that he wanted to love me, to know me and belong to him.  I wanted that, too.  I'd never had it before.  I told him I felt about becoming intimate with him and he understood and told me he loved me and if I would have him for a husband, we would get married.


 It was never my intention to live with him without being legally married.  Moving in with him was not my idea.  I found out after several months that he was losing his home due to unemployment.  He fought very hard to keep it, but to no avail.  He didn't want to move in with me.  We found a house we liked that would accomodate us as a married couple, and we entered into a lease together because we were going to get married anyway.  I still had my home I was leasing for several years.  I gave up my home seven months later and moved in because we were going to get married anyway and that was our agreement.   I had made a commitment to him.  I agreed to be his wife.  I was not going to let him bear the burden of paying all the bills in the house (even though I still had mine) indefinitely when we both signed the lease and had every intention of getting married.   I became unemployed two months before I was to move in.  I wanted to wait until I found another job, but that didn't happen before my lease expired at my house, so it just made sense to move into the house we were leasing together.  While I was working, I was helping him pay bills anyway while I was still at my other house for a few months.  I couldn't afford to do that anymore.  And we were going to get married anyway.  (I keep saying that for a reason...)


As you now know from my posts, the latter  has not happened yet...


Rachel

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 8:06PM #8
rachel219
Posts: 30

Arnie,


Thank you for taking the time to reply.  You make many points I want to think about and understand how to use them in my life and relationship.


"For example, when you hear criticism of your body, exploring and getting in touch with all the of the thoughts and feelings that come up for you."  --Arnie


Thoughts that come to my mind is this:  I can't change how I look.  God gave me this body.  Yes, I could get breast augmentation, and I have thought about it.  I mentioned this to him once no long after we were first intimate and he said he wanted to ask me about that, but wasn't sure how I would take it. He said he would pay for it.  


I was surprised.  Yes.  I bought it up because even in the early stages of our relationship, I would catch him looking at other women, and only CERTAIN body shapes.  I felt insecure and wondering what is he doing with me.  Do I please him.  Would he leave me if someone more shapely would come along.  I guess I was looking for reassurance.  I didn't get the reassurance, though.  Instead, I felt a little worse.


In my own thinking, I was hoping he would say he loved me like I was or something on that order.  I live in another world, I tell you.


"that men tend to be very visual and fantasize a lot - hence the popularity of these shows (which are very close to softcore porn). It is not unusual for a man to become aroused by that - as long as all the affections are directed towards his partner (for women, it seems that things like romance novels serve a similar purpose)." -- Arnie


Yes, I do consider the "visual and fantasize" part, that's what is always on my mind.  Is he wishing I looked like them?  When we are intimate, is he fantasing about them and getting aroused or am I doing that?  I don't read romance novels.  Never really got into them.  I felt since I wasn't doing anything, why fantasize?  If I want to do something, I'll go get a man.


"What can't be changed is the fact that he will find other women attractive. It is worthwhile to examine your own feelings and perhaps discern if this is another manifestation of what is going on inside you."  -- Arnie


It's a manifestation because it keeps happening and there is nothing I can do about it.  I have bore my soul to him, and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.  


I truly want to understand what is that he likes about these shows, other than the obvious, because he gets all upset and tells me he NOT looking at the shows to ogle the women.  I wish he just be honest, so then at least I won't look like some shrew who imagines things.  Then there was one day that he blurted out "it's Men's entertainment".  I asked, "what does that mean?"  He just repeated it.  Ok, so now what is a woman (or man) to think when something like that is said?  "Mens' entertainment".  Do you mean like "Gentlemens' Club" consisting of strippers and such?


Honestly, his answer just confirmed what I thought all along but he would never admit.  He is being "entertained" by the show.  It's exploiting women, and he finds that entertaining.  Matter of fact, ANY show where the guys have a lot of women just throwing themselves at them, nip/tuck, housewives, etc. Ok, you get the picture. 


The only thing with all this is, is that I have no "entertainment" except him.  I don't even desire any other entertainment except him (or if it wasn't him, the man I'm in love with).  Before I met him, I just never got off of seeing men in movies, or reading romance novels.  I wasn't even into the soaps, much.  So your suggestion (which I believe you meant no harm and joking) about


"give a dose of his own medicine and visible check out hot guys yourself when you are out!" -- Arnie


Won't work.  I don't care about other men.  Nobody looks as good as he does to me.  I know that sounds corney or whatnot, and maybe if I did see some guy that looked better, it's not their physical body that turns me on.  It would be something deeper.  But since I are not going to determine that quality just by looking at them, I have no interest.  I know my man (more than looks, I mean), so he attracts me.  Can you understand what I mean?  Plus, he has told me he is not jealous.  So it's futile to make him so.  I never tried anyway and had no intention of doing so.


more...


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 2:30AM #9
rachel219
Posts: 30

Arnie,


"Don't assume that he knows your thoughts and feelings - even if they have been expressed, having them received and understood is a different matter. Try to express to him in a way that doesn't blame or criticize - that way it may be possible for him to get what you are saying." -- Arnie


This is excellent advice.  I want him to understand and I want to understand as well.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 2:43AM #10
rachel219
Posts: 30

"Intimacy is in fact not about the sexual act but rather about this sharing of oneself - thoughts and feelings - with a partner and being accepted for who you are, while accepting him for who he is. Although you may have tried this, my guess is that he has felt blamed or criticized when that happens. Communication is one of the the most important elements in any relationship, and if that is not possible, then the long-term prospects are unfortunately not good ones." ~Arnie


I agree communication is one of the most important things.  That is why I am having these conversations with him.  If I am wrong, I don't want to feel attacked or that I am attacking him. But if what I am saying is the truth and has been proven by his own admittance and by results, then why does the communication initially have to wind up becoming so derrogative and ugly? The way he responds to me is not nice at all during these times.  Maybe it's meant to make me not say anything, like an intimidation tactic.  But he doesn't scare me or intimidate me in that way.  I may walk away and be quiet or listen to him lecture and get all emotional, but that doesn't mean  he's right and I'm wrong.  I just don't want to fight and I try to see his way of thinking.  It hasn't always been the right choice.


 "I hope that you find the feedback here helpful in your difficult situation."  -- Arnie


I am finding the advice here very helpful, and will continue to seek it here.


Rachel



 

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