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Switch to Forum Live View The Blame and Shame in Infidelity
5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2009 - 1:34PM #241
appy20
Posts: 10,165

You can't see their genes in your therapy sessions.  Maybe you want an outlet for your empathy. Maybe you want that more than you want a solution to their problems.  Maybe, you need your empathy to have a purpose in life.   You value communication above all else.  Maybe you feel that is your strength so you apply it where it may not work,  No solution over empathy or communication is going to be accepted by you.   Maybe you need those therapy sessions more than the people getting them.  Maybe you just need to be needed.They can convince you of that because you need to believe it.  Not because it is so.


It isn't as if I don't understand that.  At one time, I wanted to be a special education teacher.  I loved working with Down Syndrome kids. I loved them.  I found working with behaviorally disturbed kids a lot more disturbing even though I was good at it.  However,  after taking classes and doing practicums, I came to a sobering conclusion.  No matter how much I loved them or how well I taught them, I could not change their brains.  That hurt.  Curing them and finding real solutions was more valuable than giving my life a purpose.  Part of alleviating their problem is to acknowledge the source of the problem and not the romantic myths and much less what you need.  This is true for the mentally retarded, the behaviorally disturbed, the mentally ill and human sexuality.


Yes,  they can heal.  I am appalled that the healing has to mean the woman takes a responsibility for her role in his infidelity. I have no problem with her having a role in the relationship but she has no role in him choosing infidelity.  If he didn't have other motivations, he certainly had other choices.  She is not responsible for how he acts out his relationship frustrations. Just because he feels frustrated and blames her doesn't mean that is the source of his frustration.  At the end of the day, all you are doing is changing the perception of the woman and brainwashing her into thinking that his need for forgiveness trumps her desire for monogamy.  Of course, the guy loves this.  Yes, I have no doubt you can do that because women want to believe that.  Many women aren't big on science that contradicts their fairy tale views of life. 


A lot of people who don't like science because it is often unfair in that how we feel about it does not matter.  Nature does not care that when a male cat has sex with a female cat, the female cat is often mauled.  When the praying mantis kills her mate, nature does not care how the mate feels about it.  Nature does not care if a female wants a monogamous relationship.  Science is going to ask questions and find answers that are often disquieting and not to our liking. If your feelings are paramount over truth, you aren't going to like science.


I don't think you can blame genes any more than you can blame gravity.  Understanding genetics is not blaming genetics.  Understanding a cause is not the same as blaming.  Walking away from what cannot be changed is not blaming either. 


I would like women to stop applying romantic notions to their relationships.  Love has nothing to do with it.  There is no love.  Women should not be martyrs to a myth.  Men should be free to have all the sex partners they want and women should not have to take care of them in their old age.  Women should be free too.  Women should not be brainwashed into giving up what they want to preserve a relationship with a man who gets what he wants. No, nature is not fair but that does not mean women should not be told the truth and encouraged to consider alternatives.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2009 - 2:28PM #242
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407

Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:

Maybe you want an outlet for your empathy. Maybe you want that more than you want a solution to their problems.  Maybe, you need your empathy to have a purpose in life.   You value communication above all else.  Maybe you feel that is your strength so you apply it where it may not work,  No solution over empathy or communication is going to be accepted by you.   Maybe you need those therapy sessions more than the people getting them.  Maybe you just need to be needed.They can convince you of that because you need to believe it.  Not because it is so.


You could be right about all that. Who is so self-aware that they know all the nuances of their own motivation? I certainly don’t claim that for myself. (For the record, though, I’m not referring to therapy). I do accept any solution that can be proven to be effective. So far, I have not seen anything I have observed to be effective for people. Whether by genetics or otherwise, humans desire to be in relationships of all kinds. Learning better communication has been one of the most effective ways to enhance any relationship in my experience. It’s not that it is “above” all else, just that it has proven its worth.

If my words have been carefully read, it would have been observed that no blame has been made for anything, whether a person or genes. I am still confused about why that straw man keeps coming up.

Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:


Walking away from what cannot be changed is not blaming either.


This is indeed true. And it is also true that more can be changed than can be understood with the genetic bias as the answer to everything. Genetics certainly influence things, perhaps more than some find comfortable. And genetics are not the be-all and end-all. This is of course difficult to understand if one has not seen the alternatives.

Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:


I would like women to stop applying romantic notions to their relationships.  Love has nothing to do with it.  There is no love.


I actually agree with this more than you might think. Love as primarily a feeling is very much a myth in long-term relationships. It is not beneficial to a relationship or to individuals for one or both partners to unwillingly sacrifice for the other. On the other hand, relationships are also partly about choosing for one’s partner over one’s own self-interest.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2009 - 2:38PM #243
diggy1
Posts: 151

Hi All,


Thank you REteach and ArnieBeeGut for your kind words.


One of the main things I have learned out of all of this is that my husband has got to except responsibility for his actions. That is why we have not reconciled, he still says his reasons for the affair was my absence. I find that truly hard to believe. Since the majority of our marriage I was working 2 jobs and straight home with my children within 15 minutes of leaving work. He was not home until late each night and up and out early. I do have empathy because I can recall early in our marriage being in several situations where I wanted to be unfaithful. It would have been a easy thing to do but the first and foremost thought was who would be hurt. I keep within my heart the desire to hurt no one. I also never anted to bring anyone into my marriage not even family. I built a lifetime of excuses throughout the years to protect the bad things in my marriage. There have been many issues on both our parts. I do not see infidelity as a symptom. Each day choices are laid out in front of us and it is those choices that lay our path. Now my husband has brought a child and another woman into our life. I have not problem doing and being in this childs life. However her mother does not want me involved and I know my husband is not going to be completely honest with me either so I feel it is best that we live separate. I can not allow him to be the center of my life anymore. It is true the old saying about putting all our eggs in one basket. I also take care of my sister who is mentally retarded 47 years old with the mind of a 8 to 9 year old. I now have to weigh in her life as well as mine. I will not expose her to a situation or life that is unbearable for her. My son is now grown and lives with his father by choice. He does not want to live with women he says. I have found my life's calling since this affair and maybe that is what was destined to happen. I do not hate and I do chose to forgive. I can not let this affair take from me anything. I take from it and allow it to add to my life.  My sister is such a Valiant Spirit I feel she has come to this earth to help to teach me and my family. I know each day is a trail and some days I conquer some days I do not. I feel I have to set my goals at being kind and let light shine from within my heart. I hear what everyone says. I know that my own brothers do not understand how I can still help my husband and be there when he needs me. I am told I am crazy and stupid. The Divine has taught me and I have received the gift of unconditional love. It is not a easy road but well worth it. I have not expectations on my marriage. I know my husband does not believe what I told him in the beginning. I said if I found someone who I desired more than him I would be woman enough to tell him and move on. I was being honest and would do that. I just asked for the same. For whatever reason he could not do that. Beating him down will not make my wounds heal. Now it is my life's mission to live a good and productive life. I want to be a blessing to others. I pray each day that God creates in me a pure heart. I feel God has honored my request. I am ready for whatever my future is with or without. Time does heal most all wounds. The affair changed alot and it is not all bad. So for what it is worth think about the choices all of us make and it is easy to place yourself in a undesirable situation. It is all about what we value and cherish. Is it worth the pain of infidelity. Not for those of us who love completely and without placing conditions on that love. It is freely given and respected. Hugs and loving energy always sent.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2009 - 6:52PM #244
REteach
Posts: 14,821

Diggy, you sound like a wise woman to me.  My husband was able to (eventually) admit the rationalizations he made to justify himself.  I agree he has to acknowledge his choices for reconciliation to take place. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2009 - 2:13AM #245
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407
Diggy,

I second REteach - you are wise indeed. And it makes complete sense to not be willing to consider a reconciliation unless responsibility is taken and there is a path to restoring trust. Trust is the foundation to any relationship, and when that has been compromised, the foundation must be repaired before the rest can be considered. You are an angel to be caring for your sister as you do. It is sad that the treasure who you are has not been appreciated as fully as it should have been.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 4:47PM #246
appy20
Posts: 10,165

Nov 25, 2009 -- 2:28PM, ArnieBeeGut wrote:


Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:

Maybe you want an outlet for your empathy. Maybe you want that more than you want a solution to their problems.  Maybe, you need your empathy to have a purpose in life.   You value communication above all else.  Maybe you feel that is your strength so you apply it where it may not work,  No solution over empathy or communication is going to be accepted by you.   Maybe you need those therapy sessions more than the people getting them.  Maybe you just need to be needed.They can convince you of that because you need to believe it.  Not because it is so.


You could be right about all that. Who is so self-aware that they know all the nuances of their own motivation? I certainly don’t claim that for myself. (For the record, though, I’m not referring to therapy). I do accept any solution that can be proven to be effective. So far, I have not seen anything I have observed to be effective for people. Whether by genetics or otherwise, humans desire to be in relationships of all kinds. Learning better communication has been one of the most effective ways to enhance any relationship in my experience. It’s not that it is “above” all else, just that it has proven its worth.

If my words have been carefully read, it would have been observed that no blame has been made for anything, whether a person or genes. I am still confused about why that straw man keeps coming up.

Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:


Walking away from what cannot be changed is not blaming either.


This is indeed true. And it is also true that more can be changed than can be understood with the genetic bias as the answer to everything. Genetics certainly influence things, perhaps more than some find comfortable. And genetics are not the be-all and end-all. This is of course difficult to understand if one has not seen the alternatives.

Nov 25, 2009 -- 1:34PM, appy20 wrote:


I would like women to stop applying romantic notions to their relationships.  Love has nothing to do with it.  There is no love.


I actually agree with this more than you might think. Love as primarily a feeling is very much a myth in long-term relationships. It is not beneficial to a relationship or to individuals for one or both partners to unwillingly sacrifice for the other. On the other hand, relationships are also partly about choosing for one’s partner over one’s own self-interest.




Eventually, there will be genetic options for things.  We are getting close to that. The thing about "communication" etc., is that that has been tried for about a century now.  It isn't working any better.  Every generation of therapists argue that the last generation got it wrong and nothing changes.  With genetic research, things are changing.  Things are being narrowed down.   There will be options. Until those options are tried, we won't know.  We already know about what has been tried.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 5:15PM #247
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407

Nov 30, 2009 -- 4:47PM, appy20 wrote:


The thing about "communication" etc., is that that has been tried for about a century now.  It isn't working any better.


Not really - they got it wrong! ;)


In fact most of what is taught and has been tried regarding communication turns out to not be particularly effective in real situations. However, I am fortunate in having found someone who has developed approaches that are indeed very effective. Unfortunately they are not taught in the way therapists and counselors are educated. The acid test in fact is not whether something conforms to a theory, but whether it actually works. It is understandable to be skeptical of course when one hasn't seen it in operation. In fact, genuine heart-centered communication is remarkably more effective than therapy in helping people deal with their personal issues. At least that has been my experience.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 5:38PM #248
appy20
Posts: 10,165

Nov 30, 2009 -- 5:15PM, ArnieBeeGut wrote:


Nov 30, 2009 -- 4:47PM, appy20 wrote:


The thing about "communication" etc., is that that has been tried for about a century now.  It isn't working any better.


Not really - they got it wrong! ;)


In fact most of what is taught and has been tried regarding communication turns out to not be particularly effective in real situations. However, I am fortunate in having found someone who has developed approaches that are indeed very effective. Unfortunately they are not taught in the way therapists and counselors are educated. The acid test in fact is not whether something conforms to a theory, but whether it actually works. It is understandable to be skeptical of course when one hasn't seen it in operation. In fact, genuine heart-centered communication is remarkably more effective than therapy in helping people deal with their personal issues. At least that has been my experience.




You may only be seeing what you want to see and not what really is.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 8:51PM #249
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407

Nov 30, 2009 -- 5:38PM, appy20 wrote:

You may only be seeing what you want to see and not what really is.


You could be right. Of course, it could also be as it is reported to me and as I observe it.


Just yesterday my oldest son's girlfriend (who along with him has studied the skills) called to say that she had been able to use them to effectively mediate a conflict between her parents. Since this is effective with either gender, it can be observed and an informed opinion becan be formed. That is, if one is willing to do that. If one's mind is already made up, of course, then so be it.

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