I agree with most of what you say but I think you are missing an aspect of cheating.

Cheating does not just involve sex/sexual issues.

One of the definitions of Cheating is...

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

And this is the essence of cheating in a relationship. Sex is just one of the rules you can violate. You can just as easily cheat on your partner with finances by knowingly spending more than they would agree to (assuming you have commingled your finances), or by smoking, or drinking, or divulging secrets, or by associating with those your partner disapproves of, etc.

In essence any action could in theory be cheating, it all depends on the rules that have been established in your relationship. These rules do not have to ever be expressly stated either, they could easily be implied or have been built up by tradition over time. But as long as you have acknowledged the existence of the rule by obeying it or having agreed to obey it then you cannot disregard it at any point in the future without receiving express permission from your partner. Any attempt to do so is cheating regardless of the action being taken

Simon Jester wrote:

I agree with most of what you say but I think you are missing an aspect of cheating.

Because this is the Relationships & Marriage board I was attempting to focus this thread on a limited subset of cheating.

Simon Jester wrote:

Cheating does not just involve sex/sexual issues.

Agreed, however cheating at cards is not the topic of cheating as the word is being used by me within this thread.

Simon Jester wrote:

In essence any action could in theory be cheating,

Agreed

Simon Jester wrote:

it all depends on the rules that have been established in your relationship.

And within this thread I have attempted to define how I am using cheating and infidelity. I am attempting to establish a set of rules for the purpose of this conversation, on this board.

Simon Jester wrote:

These rules do not have to ever be expressly stated either, they could easily be implied or have been built up by tradition over time. But as long as you have acknowledged the existence of the rule by obeying it or having agreed to obey it then you cannot disregard it at any point in the future without receiving express permission from your partner. Any attempt to do so is cheating regardless of the action being taken

I disagree, have you acknowledge a rule that users of the name Simon may not post on Tuesdays on the Relationships & Marriage board by refraining from posting on Tuesdays? I think not. Yet one could claim that you have acknowledge the existence of such a rule by not posting on Tuesdays.

At this point we do not even agree on what is and is not cheating. For one person "cheating may well be sexual intercourse alone" and "talking" is not cheating. Kissing is not cheating, holding hands is not cheating, watching porn is not cheating. They may choose to define cheating as insertion of a penis into a vagina. If the closest they have come to another person is 1000 miles have they cheated with that person? Clearly the answer for them is no. If they have been in a stable relationship for a year, and never directly defined what constitutes "cheating" with their partner and are accused of "cheating" because they publicly posted a message on a forum are they guilty of cheating? Does their partner have a right to claim they "cheated" because of an unexpressed rule they violated?

If it my social circle there is no one that enjoys "chuck" for a year, and suddenly I make a relationship with another person who also enjoys "chuck" am I required to seek permission before I may engage in a conversation about "chuck"? Simply because I have not conversed on chuck in the last year?

If my pattern is to buy a new car and keep it for 7 years and then purchase another new car, must I seek permission from my girlfriend (of a year or even three) to purchase a new car, because I have not bought one in the last 36 months? Does my girlfriend have a right to accuse me of cheating because I bought a new car, without her permission? Or a new computer, or a new TV, or a new couch?


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I realize that people don't consider it black and white and I think that is part of the problem.  They stay in a relationship that they talk themselves into valuing.  People have a right to be happy but unfortunately, I believe it has consequences.  One reason, there are so few good men is because so many people had children with people who could not live monogamously.  Cheaters are a dime a dozen. 

It is black and white.  The more involved a relationship, the greater the error of cheating. It really is a savage blow to the relationship.  It is very disloyal to your partner.  I know too many women who loved their husbands with everything they had and trusted them completely and then this happened.  They are just shocked.  Crushed.  Then they go to therapy and the therapist brainwashes them into seeing things from their husband's perspective.  If they do not, they are considered flawed.  If they do take responsibility for his cheating, they become the problem.  He gets off Scott free.  He is forgiven.  The relationship is made better for him.  If the relationship had problems and many times they don't have that serious a problem, I don't think those problems should even be linked with the infidelity.    Sometimes, it is truly the end of the dopamine rush or opportunity presented itself.  The wife did not contribute to it.  Every situation that I have seen where I have known the intimate details of the cheating, the guy did it multiple times and most times, after divorce, the guy did the same with the next wife.  I don't know of one case where the guy was in all this pain and loneliness.  They had wives that loved them, showered them with love and attention, made them the center of their lives.  It wasn't enough for them because the guys were spoiled brats.

I have only known a handful of women in real life that cheated.  Two of them were outright psychopaths.  I know of a few others that were bipolar.  None of the women were considered good people even before anyone knew about the affairs.  That is a tough row to hoe in a marriage.  Bipolar may be the single most difficult thing to live with other than outright physical abuse.

Ironically, I have known some otherwise good men cheat.  That is what is so discouraging about men in general.  You can't even trust the best ones.  Now, I have known some really good guys that did not cheat but most of them are in my family.  Outside my family, it is tough. I have known men that everyone thought they were great and then it was found out they had another woman and even had kids by her while pretending to be the greatest husband of 30 plus years.  I also know women who think the world of their husbands and have no clue that they are cheating.  That saddens me too.  I always kept my mouth shut but it was painful to watch.  LOL I remember one woman that I knew was constantly ribbing me about my single status because she was blissfully happy in her marriage.  Yet, I knew the woman her husband was cheating with.   It was awful.

"Personally I find that the "pain" cause by an uncapped tube of toothpaste insufficient for me to recommend divorce. But that is just my beliefs."

My practice is that the kind of triviality in breaking up a relationship is wrong.  However, I cannot make that decision for anyone else.  If someone is that unhappy, I think it better to break up than cheat.  If so many people are unfaithful, you might as well break up over toothpaste.

I can, somewhat understand how women resign themselves.  Good men are rare and so some do choose to take their manure and call it chocolate.  There isn't much better out there.

There are many inadequacies in a mate that I could have tolerated but infidelity was not one of them. I draw the line at alcohol/drug abuse, infidelity (emotional and sexual), physical abuse, criminal behavior.  I am not perfect but I can give everything that I would have required of another.  I do think way too much of myself to settle for less.  If more women felt that way,  there would be more monogamous males and fewer cads.  There are way too many cads.  I know too many women who are capable of monogamy who stay single.  There are also more single women than ever.  There is a reason for that.  Single men too.

Ya know, nobody is perfect.  NOBODY.

So, if someone stays faithful, but is totally emotionally disengaged, is that a good thing?  Should my spouse have to respect all my wants and needs, but I don't have to make any compromises in return?  In what human relationship do I deserve to have things all my way? Heck, I am expect to stop at stop signs, wait in line, do something in return for my salary.  Why should marriage be viewed as something that is all take and no give?  Nothing else in life operates that way.

appy20 wrote:

I don't think it is selfish to want monogamy.  Just because you want monogamy does not mean you want all things your way.   Infidelity is just a deal breaker to me.  That does not mean I should not give.  I was willing to take care of my boyfriend even though he was most certain to develop a really bad dementia.  That would have been no bed of roses.  However, i don't wouldn't want to do that for a guy who was unfaithful. 

You see, I take relationships seriously.  I do put effort in them.  Tons of effort.  Infidelity is one deal breaker.  If I spend the last years of my life wiping a guy's backside, i dang sure don't want to do it for someone who cheated. 

That is the thing.  If I did all this work and gave it everything I had and then the guy up and decides it is not enough.  That would be the end.  I wouldn't be able to find it in me to continue to work that hard AND add more work to the equation.  If it were a job I could not do, I would change jobs.  If a guy cheats then I am the wrong person for him. He is definitely the wrong person for me. 

The irritating thing is that anytime women WANT anything they are considered selfish. If we want ANYTHING, we are always accused of wanting EVERYTHING our way.    I want monogamy. He can leave the toilet seat up, get sick, lose his job, lose his temper (without violence), say the wrong thing, forget my birthday but by God, the very least he can do is remain faithful. Yes, people should work very hard to make each other happy.  However, if you are working hard and your work is not good enough and you can't get what you want. If you know what you want and begin a relationship by stating that clearly then it should not be unreasonable for you to get it. 

When women want anything it is always wrong.  If we want monogamy and we leave when we don't get it, we are selfish, unforgiving.  We are supposed to accept that we cannot have what we want, plaster a smile on our face and convince ourselves we didn't deserve it because we didn't meet some need.  If we can't tolerate infidelity, we are insecure, blah, blah, blah.  Whenever women want anything, those wants and yest NEEDs are labelled negatively.  When we walk way when we don't get our NEEDS met or refuse to get into situations where none of our NEEDs can be met.  Maybe, just maye, the only need we have is fidelity.  Some of us don't have that many needs to begin with.

I do not think anyone thinks you are selfish if you demand monogamy. However, having read as many of your posts as I have, I suspect that you do have one selfish aspect. That aspect is assuming that your morality is the only correct one, or that all women think as you do. That being said, it is hardly uncommon, it is the default setting for the mind, as it were. We are all capable of understanding our own point of view and by extension are more capable of understanding views that are close to our own.

We are all different people. What comes naturally to one might be quite un-natural to another. I, also, am prefer monogamy. Just before my divorce was final, a young lady wanted to spend the night with me, even after I told her I was waiting on my divorce papers. While she was perfectly willing, I had to tell her I was still felt too married to go through with it. My marriage was over, my wife could not care less if I spent the night with that woman or not. But I could not because it was not official yet. I have to admit to myself that that was irrational, but that does not mean that faced with the same thing in the future I will not make the same decision. However, I would not judge another man as anything less than myself if he was able to make the decision that I did not. Nor do I see anything wrong with two people that both like to stray outside their marriage getting married so they would have a partner that understands, and allows for such behavior.