Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:24PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

I believe you are right, she is manipulating me subconciously.  It started several months ago when she stopped saying anything nice about me, yet kept loving me physically.

She understands on one level you are the best thing that has happen to her in a long time. That gives you power over her. That means you scare her, and I don't think you really understand that, what it feel like to her.

 

Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:24PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

Totally inconsistent.  She cannot say anything nice about me hardly.  For our first 15 months, she was very sweet and sent me tender, loving messages, but in middle of August, everything stopped.  That game of dispensing physical love, but denying any feelings of love have gone back and forth many times during shorter interludes in our relationship, and now for 7 months.

Now when I try to say anything romantic or call her 'cutie' (my endearment term), she sometimes even gets mad.  Yet the physical love keeps going.

I don't think it is inconsistent, in fact I see it as totally consistent with the image I have of her. Someone who has grown to love you, and who is terrified of the power that gives you over her. She needs you, and is totally afraid of the power that need gives you to control her. To manipulate her.

Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:24PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

Ive suspected that since that mid August, something changed in her and almost became mean.  I suspected I'm being manipulated and that she's using her lack of commitment and lack of verbal tenderness to deny and punish me.  For what? 

For being the best thing to happen to her in a long time? For having the ability to make her smile, to bring a glow to her? For connecting to her on a level like perhaps no one else has in a very long time if ever. For saying, using the same words a monster used to terrorize her?

She believes she is safe as long as she is not connected to another, as long as another does not hold power over her. Ask her what it means to love someone? Love gives the other power, she does not want to acknowledge that she has given you power over her, for fear that it will change you just like it did everyone else she knows.  A long time ago I suggested you don't make her feel safe, I still see that as the issue, the more she feels her love for you the more power she feels you have over her. Go to the counselor, and you're going to have to hunt to find one, not anyone will do, if you want her. Go by yourself if she will not go. If you've found the right counselor he or she will be able to help your relationship even if she does not come. I suspect you'll win her by the difference you make in your relationship with her. You are going to have to change just as she will.

 

Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:24PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

That's the part I can't figure out.  That's what would take a councelor.  She claims that I'm such a good man and exceptional, so is she punishing me for me, or is she punishing me for the subconcious anger that's built up inside of her and I'm just the available punching bag?  Because she knows that I'm madly in love with her and she can use me?

If you wish to keep her, it serves no purpose to think in this way, to write these words. She is no out to punish you, his is not about you, but about her! She is seeking ways to validate herself and her beliefs. She is trying to control her fear! She is what 59 years old? and she lived with how many years of abuse? Those years taught her to see the world, men, and the one who claims to lover her in one way, you want, need her to see you different! To believe in you. To change, to trust, you are scary as hell, and the more important you become to her the more she depends on you the more frightening you become.

Mar 4, 2009 -- 4:24PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

The problem is, she will never, ever go to couples counceling.  First becasue she is major denial about her feelings, and second too proud.  She denies she loves me as a man, only as a friend, so why should friends go to counciling? 

Maybe I sould go to couceling by myself over this issue?

I believe you should, yes. I think you'll need to and to demostraight a positive change that you can attribute to the counselor, in order for her to go.  If I'm right about her she lives in a world of fear, appeal to her on that level, how talking to the counselor makes you less afraid. You need to establish that going to the counselor does mean you are "sick" or bad. That you are not less of a person because you went.

 

 

Ricky-
I agree that she's afraid, but I don't think it's as much of you as it is of her own self.

Think about it.

Suppose you were in her shoes---being verbally abused every day, made to feel worthless and unworthy, beaten for small errors, yelled at repeatedly---and for, say, thirty or forty years.  THEN you wise up and gth away from the abuser...but not scot-free.

Just because a wound doesn't leave a scar doesn't mean it doesn't exist; she's got some psychological wounds that she may never recover from, and certainly won't unless she acknowledges them(one of my axioms: in order to solve a problem, one must first acknowledge that a problem exists.  No acknowledgment, no progress; "stuck in a loop" is how I sometimes describe it, like the dumb blonde who drowned in the shower due to "lather, rinse, repeat"). 

I, too, am glad she's going to counseling, and hope that eventually, she'll go with you, as well, so that the counselor can observe your interactions and make suggestions based on the reality of what is observed. 

Some people write their own script in life; some people have their scripts written FOR them, and some have no idea that there IS a script, much less that they can choose to write or re-write their own.  Most of those who have had their life-scripts written FOR them have no or little idea that their lives are playing out according to what some other people have TOLD them about themselves, those that have limited their ability to live abundantly by psychological tricks and/or pain they inflict on their victims, those who have lived without encouragement or empowerment, etc., but have received instead the opposite so long that they now believe this is all they deserve, and are suspicious of anything other than that kind of treatment as "too good to be true."  They're waiting always for the other shoe to fall, and when it doesn't, they INVENT a shoe to prove they were right, and remain stuck in their "misery-loop." 

I'm glad that you're dating, but this may also play into the script she's written, e.g. "when you dump me," and the like.  My suggestion?  The next time she pulls that negative game-playing on you, say, "And if that does take place, what's the worst thing that can happen?"  When she answers with more negativity, ask it again, and again, until the ridiculousness of the scenario begins to dawn on her, and she laughs.  This is a technique called "reductio ad absurdum," which, iirc, means "reduce it to the ridiculous."

Once she laughs, you can sow a seed or two of positivity, to try to slow that self-destructive train of hers down a freckle, or at least send it on to a side-track where she can recuperate and re-form her reality, maybe including you in it.  Encourage her to watch her self-talk, because what we tell ourselves about ourselves often becomes our reality---a double-edged sword if there ever was one, e.g. "Whether you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right!" (Henry Ford).

In the meantime, continue to refuse to accept any behavior you don't like from her, so she'll learn how to treat you.  This rejection can take many forms, from something as simple as quietly saying "I find this(be specific) to be completely unacceptable" all the way up to calling the cops---or shooting her(not that this would be necessary or advisable; there's a wide range of possible responses, that's all I'm saying, here).

So at this stage, I'd advise being companionable and positive, while making clear what it is you expect and will approve of, as well as what you do NOT.  I'd say that the chances are very high that she's never had healthy boundaries in her life, and may well be looking to you to provide something similar.

If not, expect her to play more games with your head, e.g. the kissing and fondling and hand-holding followed by "You're not my boyfriend," and "I won't have sex with you."  She may call it teasing; I call it what it is---sadism. 

Warmest regards-

Hatman

I hear your encouragement about validating her, but here's the problem;

I tell her she's a beautiful woman and she ingores me.

I tell how good she looks and she ignores me, how nice her hair looks.

I tell her what an intellignet woman and she ignores me and even seems annoyed.

I tell her how we; just me and her can sit on the sofa, without any TV or music and talk for six hours straight, and I said "who else can we do that with?"  And she sort of aknowledges it, but very reluctantly.

I remind her how many times she's said "we were made for each other", and "we're sucha good fit".

The point is, every time I try to validate her worth, she seems annoyed.

I can't tell you how many beautiful letters and notes she sent me in the past; notes that were so tender and hearfelt and romantic and sexy, and yet now she tells me that she doesn't love me "like a wife loves a husband".  I could believe that she has fallen out of love with me, it happens all the time, but even the other day when her guard was down, she admitted we have chemisty and how we've made love even recently.

Then she put back on her protective gear and said ; "I know I initiated all the sexiness and loving, but it was the alcohol"  Really?  After almost two years, hundreds of times?  It was always just the alcohol?  (we're talking two to three beers here, then she lets her guard down). 

The crux of the matter to me is : I know she loved me before; I can prove it.

Does she still love me, but has she put up a shield agansit it?

We had a long talk yesterday again.  She said she is so happy I am with a new Laday and seems fine with it.  But then she said "I lied to you that I was doing my auditing, those three days after you told me, I was in bed all day thinking about losing you".  Then her guard got back up again.

If I really thought she did love me as a man, I woul drop everything and just wait her outforever if that's what it took.  But what do you do when someone says they don't "love you like a wife loves a husband"?

Ricky,

You have been receiving very thoughtful and compassionate feedback from DAH/Teknmage, and I particularly appreciate the encouragement to validate her. However, the response suggests that the meaning of "validate" might perhaps require some clarification (recognizing that this may not be exactly what DAH had in mind). Rather than avoiding her worst fears, letting her know that you hear and understand her worst fears is imo an effective way to build intimacy (of the emotional kind).

Complimenting someone is not the same as validating them. In fact, in this case it is (perhaps paradoxically) the opposite! Validating is to let her know that you fully accept all her thoughts and feelings, whether you agree with them or not. You are not agreeing with them, but are affirming that she has every right to them, and you are not going to try to change them.

The difficulty you are experiencing is perhaps due to an agenda - a desired outcome - rather than acceptance of her thoughts and feelings. Her response to a compliment is what needs to be validated - and accepted. Silence in response to telling her she is beautiful or intelligent speaks volumes about how she feels, and if she knew that you "got" those feelings (again without agreeing with them) you would at least have a better chance of getting to the bottom of what is going on.

I also think it would help to have firmer boundaries about physical intimacy, oddly enough. It is crazy-making for both of you, based on what is being reported here; you two have diametrically opposite takes on the same events. So the next time things start to get steamy, I suggest you draw a line at some point and say you are unwilling to go farther.

You are such a caring and compassionate man, and she is fortunate to have someone who is willing to go through so much for. I think that is recognized at some level, and yet it is proving extremely difficult to get past the pain of the past.

Blessings,
Arnie

Mar 8, 2009 -- 1:48PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

The point is, every time I try to validate her worth, she seems annoyed.

I'm sorry I hear this as you not speaking her language, not meeting her needs, what you are sending as validation she is not hearing that way. Perhaps you are making it about, rather than her?

Mar 8, 2009 -- 1:48PM, rickyvilleza wrote:

Then she put back on her protective gear and said ; "I know I initiated all the sexiness and loving, but it was the alcohol"  Really?  After almost two years, hundreds of times?  It was always just the alcohol?  (we're talking two to three beers here, then she lets her guard down).

The crux of the matter to me is : I know she loved me before; I can prove it.

Does she still love me, but has she put up a shield agansit it?

We had a long talk yesterday again.  She said she is so happy I am with a new Laday and seems fine with it.  But then she said "I lied to you that I was doing my auditing, those three days after you told me, I was in bed all day thinking about losing you".  Then her guard got back up again.

If I really thought she did love me as a man, I woul drop everything and just wait her outforever if that's what it took.  But what do you do when someone says they don't "love you like a wife loves a husband"?

In one sense it seems to me that you really don't know Ricky. What do you want? What are you really willing to put up with? How much pain are you willing to risk?

She is in your life, and in my world if you want her you have a chance that is all any of us have. As long as she is talking to you, you have a chance. Now you can at any point say I hurt too much and walk away, you can say she is not worth the effort to me, and walk away. If you choose to stay then yes you are risking the fact that she might be using you for all she can get. That she is manipulating you with the intent of hurting you, tricking you. To some extent relationships are about manipulation, hopefully manipulation that we are okay with and except, but manipulation (making the other person do what I want) none the less. If all you see, if all you worry about is is she using me, then in my opinion you are better off walking away.

So assuming you still want her, and not closure...

"I lied to you that I was doing my auditing, those three days after you told me, I was in bed all day thinking about losing you" This is what my ex would call a conversation starter, an opening to talk about deep and meaningful things. A chance to get real, be real. Did you take it? She tossed the ball back into your court, did you take it?

At great personal risk she laid bare a part of her soul for you, she has acknowledge that you are more than the mail man, more than the pool boy. I hear her shouting in her language that she cares about you Ricky! She cares so damn much that for three days all she could think about was the consequences of losing you. I hear a woman that loves you RICKY so much that she's willing to try and put your needs above her own! She is in her language telling you she made a mistake, and asking you to take her back, and she is telling you that she'll understand if you choose to reject her too, because really she is not worthy of you. She gave me an opening I could have driven an eighteen wheel through.

One last point here, you say it's been hundred of times, in the majority of those times has she had two or three beers? For some people that is all it takes, for others that is all they need to justify it in their own minds. Me I prefer my partner for the first time sober, without a need to justify our actions in her mind and then I don't need to wonder, don't need to ask myself this question. Sure that means I don't get all I could, but the ones I do are a lot more enjoyable for me because their is no question as to if they really want to.