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Switch to Forum Live View Women making the First Move
6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 7:20PM #11
Sailorlal79
Posts: 1,365
[QUOTE=DFireheart;714530]Sorry, but I have to ask at this point, isn't the whole idea of men being "dominant" in relationships sort of sexist?

It is 2008 after all, and most women wouldn't want men to assume  that domination was there due in any other area of life,  why is this the last bastion?

Also, in asking around people tell me the female first-movers (FFMs?) are more common on the west coast.  could there be a geographic or generational variable to this?  would I be more likely to be hit upon by an attractive woman at an Obama rally than at a McCain rally?


I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is really a deep biological hardwiring, or if, as I suspect,  its just cultural.[/QUOTE]

It might be sexist, but people are attracted to what they are attracted to...can't be helped.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 8:50PM #12
ArnieBeeGut
Posts: 1,407

DFireheart wrote:

I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is really a deep biological hardwiring, or if, as I suspect,  its just cultural.

I am curious as to the implication of "just cultural" - perhaps you are under the impression that for humans, cultural forces and influences are less powerful than biological ones.

Blessings,
Arnie

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 8:52PM #13
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
D-
I'm going with the "deep biological hardwiring" thing, based on lots of experience and multiple authors I've read.
Now, of course there are always exceptions, but generally speaking, men pursue women, and women like being pursued.  Sometimes.  Other times, it's either creepy or BEYOND creepy to downright revolting or scary.

It's a great dance, when done right, though!

For me, like the ocean and the shore, an interplay and exchange.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 11:43AM #14
DFireheart
Posts: 70
[QUOTE=ArnieBeeGut;714708]I am curious as to the implication of "just cultural" - perhaps you are under the impression that for humans, cultural forces and influences are less powerful than biological ones.

Blessings,
Arnie[/QUOTE]

I think they're certainly easier to change.  For example, when I was a kid (going to date myself here, but it can't be helped) the local newspaper divided their classified jobs section into "women"and "mens" sections, the operating assumption being that the great majority of jobs were either suited to men or women.  Today most people would find this absurd, not to mention offensive and highly discriminatory.

Society has changed so much over the last few decades, that you would think the ways men and women interact in relationships would reflect that change.  and to some extent it does, but not to the extent society at large has changed.

either that, or I've just been hanging out in the wrong places.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 4:32AM #15
Ethelq5
Posts: 56
as for me, more often it's the women who sends this non-verbal signs for a guy to ask her out if she's interested.but very seldom you can hear a girl asking a guy out though it really happens (specially today's generation).it's because, we want, should i say, i want this guy to be very keen with what my gesture is suggesting.i want him to be sensitive.i will never ask through words but by just merely looking at me, you'll know what i want.and also i believe with what the other person said (forgot the name) that maybe it depends on the generation.mine is still conservative.nowadays, it's just common for a girl to ask a boy "let's have a date"...:)
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 12:00PM #16
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
Ethel-
[QUOTE]i want him to be sensitive.  i will never ask through words but by just merely looking at me, you'll know what i want.[/QUOTE]

LOL!

Well, what you want and what is available are generally miles apart.  Most men don't DO subtle, are NOT sensitive, and do NOT pick up on "clues," or "hints," or even flagrant flirting.  If you expect him to look at you and "just know," you have a forlorn hope.  Many a woman has been quite disappointed by expecting a man to be able to read her mind.

Most men have learned the hard way that to assume ANYTHING about a woman is dangerous as hell, not only to their self-esteem, but also to their physical well-being, not only from police/judges/family members, but also from a genuine risk of physical attack, whether from fists, feet, or teeth, or mace/pepper spray/stun guns or whatever can be picked up and used as a club or projectile!

Get a couple of restraining orders/jailed/go to the hospital JUST ONCE after assuming that a woman is projecting some sort of "please pick me up" vibe, and I guarantee you that you'll be incredibly careful from that point on.

Nope, these days it's VERY important to spell things out in advance; some guys will even go so far as to have the woman sign a statement guaranteeing no lawsuit for assault or pregnancy before they'll agree to coitus, too!

Yep, takes a most of the mystery and a lot of the fun out of dating/lovemaking, but once burned, twice shy, babe.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 2:44PM #17
DesertKat
Posts: 436
I don't know that I would go that far, Hatman.  But yes, you have to tell men what you want.  Sometimes write it out with pictures, circles and lines and a paragraph explaining each section.  And a road map to the flower shop as well.

But in the end, you get what you want and the guy doesn't feel like he's walking in a mine field. 

But I think I am digressing from the topic, yes?

On topic, there are biological overtones to being persued- women may well have an instinctive need to be assured that the male they are eyeing will be able to provide for them.  But on the line of nurture vz. nature it is my belief that we fall more towards nurture.  It is our culture for men to persue, just as it is other cultures for women to persue and men to pose and preen.  If we step outside our cultural norms and mores, we find that there is a huge bredth of human behavior that doesn't fit what *we* expect.  But then, I would pick culture as I have a BA in Anthropology.
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
Winston Churchill
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 4:06PM #18
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
DK-
[QUOTE]Sometimes write it out with pictures, circles and lines and a paragraph explaining each section[/QUOTE]

LOL!  An "Alice's Restaurant" aficionado, I presume?

You may be right on the cultural programming, as what's true for American women and men is nowhere near as true for, say, European women and men, ime.

However, I don't quite believe that the "need to be pursued"(or desire, at any rate) has a much to do with the male's being able to provide, per se, as it does to do with the simple fact of being wanted/desired over other women, i.e. feeling special and unique BECAUSE of that pursuit.

This can be seen in the oft-cited "What does she have that I don't have?" question so many women torture themselves with.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 4:14PM #19
DFireheart
Posts: 70
Well, I suppose there are different ways of doing things and interactions can get complex.

There is a young woman I see regularly on the subway on the way to work.  She’s always friendly and asks what I’m going to do for the weekend or mentions neat local bars or restaurants. 

Today I showed her my new cell phone and she entered her phone number into my contacts and said, “Now if you’re having a drink or something and want to call me you can.”

Could this constitute making the first move?

I actually feel pretty good about it either way.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 4:17PM #20
DesertKat
Posts: 436
There is something to that.  It takes a very confident person, regardless of gender, to not be affected by being single, especially if surrounded by couples.  Not to mention the whole thing we are taught as young girls that men value only what they have to persue.  So there are a range of things, from biological to cultural going on.  I just happen to think that its the cultural and psych-social aspects that are stronger.

And its always a pleasure to find someone who gets my Arlo Guthrie jokes.  :D
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
Winston Churchill
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