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6 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2007 - 12:14PM #1
frankieestep
Posts: 682
Ok, about the eternal torment thing.  I believe that Hell is separation from God.  Is that torment?  For some, yes.  For other, maybe not so much.  Does God send people there or do they make their own choices?  I believe we make our own choices.  And no, I don't agree that we have to kiss the backside of some diety.

Pixie, I can't even imagine having to make a choice like that, but to think of the ones who are here and need you is the only choice in that situation. 

Would I expect unconditional love from a mate?  No.  Because as humans, we are flawed.  And the experiences I've had were "I love you just fine until it requires something from me".  When I was having chemo, and I really needed a little physical help and understanding, I got it from my son but not my husband.  My husband couldn't see past his own fears and pain to even begin to see mine.  My son was always there to do whatever I needed help with.

I'm not saying unconditional love from a mate wouldn't exist, but it's not an expectation.  It has to be a gift.  If it's not freely given, it's not love at all.  Especially in the instances of "But I did all of this for you, why won't you do that for me??"  Whatever I choose to do, what I choose to give, is my choice.  I can't expect anything in return if I'm doing it for someone else.  Then I'm not doing it for them, I'm doing it for what they will do for me.

Maybe this is one of the major reasons I choose to remain single.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 7:31PM #2
appy20
Posts: 10,165
I am starting this thread because we have touched upon it on other threads.  Is it possible or impossible?  What is it exactly?  Do you believe in it?  Are you capable of it?  Have you ever experienced it?  Do you want or expect it? What are your theories of it?
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 8:01PM #3
appy20
Posts: 10,165
Okay, I'll start.
Is it possible or impossible? 
It is possible but is extremely rare.  Also, it is not always healthy.  If you are unconditionally loving a serial killer, then I tend to think ya got a problem. 

What is it exactly?  I have a more moderate definition of it.  I guess I don't really believe in unconditional love.  Although, I have come close to feeling it. 


Are you capable of it? No.  Almost but not quite.  I did love my last boyfriend to the point I would have made major sacrifices for him and I did not ask very much of him in return.  Sometimes I think the reason it did not work out is because God knew that I would have ended up with the short end of the stick and I would have.  However, I loved him completely.  Not just physically even though that was part of it.  I loved his flaws as well as his strengths.


Have you ever experienced it? No one has ever loved me unconditionally.  I am not childish enough to feel bad about this. 

  Do you expect it? No. 

Any theories about it? 
I think that it is best left as a goal to be strived for rather than actually attained.  One shouldn't overlook things like physical abuse and substance abuse but one should cut the other some slack over their personal foibles.  I have uncles and aunts with loving marriages of over 50 years.   They have reached a point where they no longer criticize each other or even get irritated with each other.  When you are around them, it is fun to watch them interact.  They are so comfortable.  They are far from perfect people yet neither point out the other's flaws.  They do see each others attributes.  Their children want marriages like theirs and marvel at them too.  They disagree without being disagreeable.  They just take differences in stride.  They don't try to control one another's opinions or actions.  It is really cool.  One aunt is now dying.  Her husband is devastated.  He takes such loving care of her.  One uncle died 4 years ago.  His spouse still aches for him.  Her life pretty much ended then.  No one thought she would live this long.  Both couples had really profound love for one another.  That is possible.  I have seen it. 

All people are annoying when you get to know them.  I find it so sad when I see couples that tear each apart over the silliest things.  We are all difficult and annoying people.  That is life.  I think part of love should include the recognition of that fact. 

Ideally, people grow to love one another's flaws as much as their attributes.  That isn't exactly unconditional love but it is a step toward it.  It takes a lot of maturity.  It probably takes some exceptional brain wiring and without that, a person simply is  not capable of any such thing. That may be why it is so rare.  It may not serve the purpose of life on the basic biological level.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 8:38PM #4
appy20
Posts: 10,165
You are soooooooo sexy when you are analytical.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 8:51PM #5
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
Appy-
[QUOTE]Is it possible or impossible? [/QUOTE]
"With men, it is impossible; with God, nothing is impossible."
[COLOR=Black]This is what Christ had to say in regard to the "How shall a rich man get into heaven, then?" question, but I think it is equally as applicable here.  After all, God does not first determine the good or evil of all those who need rain or sun before sending each.

[/COLOR][QUOTE]What is it exactly?[/QUOTE]
Well, unconditional love is just that; no conditions whatsoever.  ONE SINGLE CONDITION, EVER, and it ceases from being "unconditional," doesn't it?
[QUOTE] Do you believe in it?[/QUOTE]
I have said "no" in the past, but some other replies caused me to rethink my position; even serial murderers are sometimes still loved by their parents, who remember the pain and the joy of childbirth and certain childhood memories long before wrong turns were made.
[QUOTE]Are you capable of it?[/QUOTE]
Probably not, at least toward another living being, but I have no children yet; one of my best friends often told me "You will never know what love is until you have a child of your own," and he's probably right.
[QUOTE] Have you ever experienced it?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but it was an experience of the Divine, when "God is in His Heaven, and all is right with the world."  Very rare.
[QUOTE] Do you want or expect it?[/QUOTE]
Want it?  I loved that experience(those experiences), so yes.  Expect it?  No.  From fellowmen, this is a quite unreasonable expectation, doomed to continual disappointment.
[QUOTE] What are your theories of it?[/QUOTE]
Asked and answered fairly adequately above, I think.  I believe that between God and most of His Creation, it can and does exist, especially among His holy angels and the rest of His creation that is without freewill but both gives and receives in accord with it's nature; however, among those of His creation who ARE given freewill, this kind of unconditionality(if that's a word) is virtually impossible to conceive, let alone participate in.

I take a look at the Ten Commandments, and these basically are all conditions, conditions for receiving His approval and blessing.  Generally, I associate both approval and blessing with love.  So the withholding of both approval and blessing seems a withholding of love, ergo a condition, ergo no such critter as Unconditional love.

Short answer is I don't know, anymore, but remain curious.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 10:05PM #6
pixie34
Posts: 1,104

appy20 wrote:

You are soooooooo sexy when you are analytical.



He is, isn't he....

I do like the part about god welcoming satan.

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 10:37PM #7
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
ohmigosh. i was just thinking, the last time i took a whack at unconditional love with my philosophical hammer, i was in high school. the phrase has all the meaning of white noise to me now.

at it's best, i think perhaps the phrase refers to self-management of one's own emotions, quite disconnected from any particular actions. that is, it is letting yourself feel.

at it's worst, it means behaving as if there's nothing wrong with someone, when there is.

anyways, i'm chinese (upon occasion). we don't have love. we have duty. far more reliable. and i've experienced a lot of unconditional duty.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 9:04AM #8
appy20
Posts: 10,165
I did think of one thing. I do love my pets unconditionally.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 10:52AM #9
nightchi
Posts: 156
[QUOTE=appy20;101423]I am starting this thread because we have touched upon it on other threads.  Is it possible or impossible?  What is it exactly?  Do you believe in it?  Are you capable of it?  Have you ever experienced it?  Do you want or expect it? What are your theories of it?[/QUOTE]

'Unconditional love' is the 'spiritual growth concept' that  people trot out when they have fucked you over and want to still keep you around. Everybody has a point at which they are so horrified by what someone did to them that the love just breaks. Okay, maybe not Jesus Christ or Ghandi or Martin Luther King, Jr., but other than those exceptions, everybody means everybody.

Serial killers still love their sons... well, how narcissistic is that? The parents of the victims are probably not feeling the love. If a serial killer say, disemboweled their mom's puppy dog and force fed it to her grandson, and kept up these things, eventually the heart of the poor woman  would break.

I do believe in unconditional neediness, though. Some people need to feel attached so badly that they'll accept anything and everything. But they are rarely out buying roses for their "beloved". They are usually writing long litanies of their faults and comparing the object of their "love" to Hitler and Satan.

Do I want that....let me think....no.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 29, 2007 - 9:04AM #10
appy20
Posts: 10,165
I did think of one thing. I do love my pets unconditionally.
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