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Switch to Forum Live View ADHD Overdiagnosed in Younger Kids
3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:08PM #121
mountain_man
Posts: 40,555

Mar 23, 2012 -- 10:40AM, StephenK.Adams wrote:

The problem as I see it is that far too often these problems are written off as being genetic in nature when there is sufficient evidence to prove otherwise.


Alcoholics Anonymous is a major player in spreading lies like that. They claim "alcoholism" is a genetic defect and that the genes causing it are proof. Well... that gene they're talking about effects how the body deals with alcohol. It does not MAKE you drink it.


The above ideas do not mesh with the belief that genetics plays a part in all mental illness.


Genetics can play a part in some mental illnesses. I doubt any doctor has made a blanket statement that it plays a part in all mental illnesses.


If that were the case, then cognitive behavioral therapy could not correct genetic abnormalities in the brain.


No, it would not, but it would help to get around them.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:18PM #122
farragut
Posts: 4,189

When my sibs and I were young we quickly learned the value of obeying and responding to our parents. Nor were there any televisions or electronic games to divert us from their expectations. One's ass could be tanned very quickly when necessary.


Today there is no fear of a spank on the rump, and undesired behaviors seem to propagate like rabbits. I suspect that some of what appears to be ADHD is quite explainable thereby.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 1:32PM #123
mountain_man
Posts: 40,555

Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:18PM, farragut wrote:

...Today there is no fear of a spank on the rump, and undesired behaviors seem to propagate like rabbits. I suspect that some of what appears to be ADHD is quite explainable thereby.


Just because children are no longer beaten doesn't mean that they go unpunished for bad behavior. I never spanked my kids. Rarely punished them, but very often, daily if not hourly, rewarded them for good behavior. They turned out perfect.


For many people ADHD is a reality and has nothing to do with beating them into submission.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 4:07PM #124
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 2,004

Mar 23, 2012 -- 1:08PM, mountain_man wrote:



If that were the case, then cognitive behavioral therapy could not correct genetic abnormalities in the brain.


No, it would not, but it would help to get around them.




There are people who were told they have genetic damage that is causing their mental problems.  Some of these people have been helped by various forms of Psychiatry, most notably Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and as a result they are living normal lives.


You can say that the Therapy bypassed the genetic damage if you prefer.  I see it otherwise.  At the very least, people should be given a chance to learn new behaviors before being told that the problem is genetic in nature and then prescribed some form of medication for the rest of their lives.   


Incidently, I liked the way your post #132 was split into a number of pieces where you could address each of my comments separately.   I wish I knew how to do that also.  I tried the Multi-Quote button but it didn't work for me.  Your Post # 134 is excellent.

We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 4:16PM #125
mountain_man
Posts: 40,555

Mar 23, 2012 -- 4:07PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:

There are people who were told they have genetic damage that is causing their mental problems.


For some people that is true.


Some of these people have been helped by various forms of Psychiatry, most notably Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and as a result they are living normal lives.


I never said they could not do that.


You can say that the Therapy bypassed the genetic damage if you prefer.


I said no such thing. Try to understand what I said instead of thinking of ways to argue against it. Than we can communicate.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 4:47PM #126
StephenK.Adams
Posts: 2,004

Well Mr Mountain Man, you sure know how to split hairs don't you.


You said:  --- No, it would not, but it would help to get around them


I failed to copy your words exactly but instead used the expression "bypassed" them.  Tell me kind sir, what huge difference do you see in those two expressions.  If getting around something and bypassing something are not the same thing then go ahead and explain the difference to me.


We have nothing to fear except our lack of understanding of fear itself.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 7:11PM #127
mountain_man
Posts: 40,555

Mar 23, 2012 -- 4:47PM, StephenK.Adams wrote:

Well Mr Mountain Man, you sure know how to split hairs don't you.....


Never mind. I'll move on. You can have the last word.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 8:31PM #128
REteach
Posts: 15,153

Mar 23, 2012 -- 10:40AM, StephenK.Adams wrote:



The above ideas do not mesh with the belief that genetics plays a part in all mental illness.  If that were the case, then cognitive behavioral therapy could not correct genetic abnormalities in the brain.  I postulate that conglomerated fears caused the chemical imbalance in the brain and cognitive behavior therapy helped the patient to overcome his or her conglomerated fears and restore a normal balance of "brain metabolism" for the patient in question.


One Bio-Psychiatrist stated that talking (rather than medication) was useless.  In fact he stated further that talking could actually make things worse.  Perhaps he failed to realize that he just admitted that talking has an effect.   The question then becomes, does the "talker" have the skill to help his patient.   In the case of the Bio-Psychiatrist mentioned above, since he thinks that talking is useless, the chances that he could help a patient by talking with him or her would probably be next to hopeless.  



It is not black or white.  Genes can play a role in the number and type of neurotransmitters one has. The interaction between genes and the environment is huge.  There is, for example, some evidence that antisocial personality disorder is a combination of genetic loading triggered by early neglect or abuse.  There are some windows for some types of neurological development.  


When the FDA gave SSRI antidepressants a black box warning in adolescents based on increased suicidal ideations in the first couple weeks, the number of prescriptions dropped. Alas, the number of completed suicides in teens increased. I suppose it is possible that none of the teens who went on to commit suicide were not getting any therapy, but that seems unlikely.


There is increasing evidence that tics may best be treated with habit reversal therapy or CBT.  However, sometimes that is not enough. 


Learning occurs because changes happen at synapses.  Synapse presence is a genetic thing. They are interrelated. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 10:09PM #129
teilhard
Posts: 52,187

And MANY Psychotropic Meds have VERY serious Side Effects ...

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 9:55AM #130
REteach
Posts: 15,153

Yes. And the most common cause of pediatric overdose deaths is maternal prenatal vitamins and if aspirin was released today, it would be prescription only and have a black box warning. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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