Feb 13, 2012 -- 9:35PM, mountain_man wrote:

Feb 12, 2012 -- 11:54PM, jane2 wrote:

MM, I thought spanking went out two generations ago--am I naive.

A bit. It's still popular.

We talked to our children--no time-outs, which I tend to think encourage a certain rage.

It depends on the child. Works great for some kids, others not so much.

I can count on two fingers punishments handed out.

Parents who reason with children have reasonable children.

My two girls turned out be very reasonable, well adjusted, adults. We talked, punishment was creative and fairly rare.

I had a mother who ws toe-the-line and by six I knew a gazillion ways around her. My Dad reasoned with me always and it worked. I'm certain my kids got around us, too, but not in anything that mattered. When my son was in high school rolling with toilet paper was a hot "thing". I remember he was furious with a classmate, son of a Lutheran minister, who "stole" toilet paper from the school. His reasoning was they could have bought it--not a bad kid.

When my mother was around she hit.

I was so like my dad and his family and I was the oldest. I puzzled my mother always. I was a true Daddy's Girl, but Daddy's Girls tend to do well in many ways.

My kids were nearly always a joy for me. Why would I hit them?? Just for being kids?? I thought it was my responsibility to smooth the way for them. I still enjoy their company and that of their children. None were ever "brats". Tonight on the phone I was telling my younger daughter about her toddler brother and sister playing with a beach ball in the back of the station wagon when kids could ride in the back. I counselled them about the ball and when it blew out the back window I kept going. I'd been watching  Dr. Hiam Ginott (sp?) on the Today Show and he suggested letting consequences of little moment take place. I can still see their faces when I didn't go back for the beach ball. I waited a bit before buying another to take to the pool.

I''m glad for your girls.

In truth, it's very complicated.

Recall the movie "The Passion of the Christ".

Here the soldiers are having a jolly good time flogging and scourging Christ.

Is this sane? No it is not.

If they too had been flogged and scourged at some time in the past, they
would instead have a sane understanding of such brutality and its wrongfulness.

Reality is a closed system. Eventually truth comes full circle, thus he who lives by the
Sword shall die by the sword.

If reality were small in scale, and thus truth came full circle in say 2 1/2 seconds, man
would behave in a different manner all together. Picture the soldier giving Christ the first
flogging. Blood flies, and thus pain is inflicted. But then 2 1/2 seconds later Christ is
healed and the truth is passed on to the soldier. Suddenly it is he, the soldier, whom is
now scarred, it is he whom is now in pain.

If this were the case, would this practice of brutality continue?

However, if the feedback takes much much much longer due to the massive scale of
reality itself, then people think that they can get away with such acts of brutality.

Thus in this life, the truth of what they have done to another has not yet come full circle,
thus the bully, or soldier, does not see the truth of what he has done, and thus he
continues to act in this insane manner, as bullies do.

Without feedback, bullies evolve.

Without feedback, insane behavior evolves.

Those on the evil side will allow plenty of children to turn out well despite not having been spanked, thus there is no feedback. This then confuses the shallow minded, the
shallow minded who also can not see the difference between beating a child, and the
occasional spanking of a child.

For some time now, more and more spoilt brats have come into being. Why?

For some time now, bullies have tormented the innocent, Why?

The first step taken, has been to help the victims of bullies rather than prevent the growth of Bullying. Why?

Why did they not stop bullying dead in its tracks rather than perform an ongoing helping
of the victim of bullying, and helping the next victim of bullying, and the next, and the
next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next.......

Without some kind of feedback, the truth is lost.
Without some kind of feedback, sanity is lost.

I am not an absolutist an I tend not to trust absolutists.  It is absolutist to say that spanking a child is always wrong.  Well noooooo,  I disagree.

I think it is best to let a child live by the law of natural consequences.  Sometimes natural consequences are too severe to allow and you have to intervene. 

Most childhood experts that I came up with said that spanking is fine when the situation is physicaly dangerous.  If your child is having a hard time following rules designed to keep him safe then you can't just count on reason for that. 

Feb 14, 2012 -- 1:59AM, MAXTECH wrote:

In truth, it's very complicated.

Actually, it's pretty simple. Trying to stretch the truth, or wrap it around a cherished belief, is when things get complicated.

Recall the movie "The Passion of the Christ".

Let's not since it was not based on any truth but the dream of a long dead nun.

If this were the case, would this practice of brutality continue?...

That's what the study showed; those that were spanked as kids were more violent than those that were not.

Personally I don't have a huge problem with spanking, so long as it is used carefully, and not when a parent is extremely upset and frusterated with their child (I'd never use it though). One of my concerns though regarding spanking is when it is used as a last resort. When a parent has tried everything he/ she can think of to try and get their child to behave and listen and so forth (to the rules or whatever the parents has for their children), they can sometimes (IMO) become EXTREMELY frusterated and enraged at that child. If they used spanking as their last resort, I believe that sometimes the parent can spank their child beyond and 'acceptable' level.

JFG