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Switch to Forum Live View Spanking can cause long term harm.
2 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2012 - 4:34PM #1
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798
This is always a hot topic around here.

Here's a link to the article.

Here's a quote:

We're really past the point of calling this a controversy. That's a word that's used and I don't know why, because in the research there really is no controversy," she said in an interview.

"If we had this level of consistency in findings in any other area of health, we would be acting on it. We'd be pulling out all the stops to work on the issue."


Durant and co-author Ron Ensom, with the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa, cite research showing that physical punishment makes children more aggressive and antisocial, and can cause cognitive impairment and developmental difficulties.



Kids are for hugging, not hitting.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2012 - 4:53PM #2
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779

Feb 12, 2012 -- 4:34PM, mountain_man wrote:

This is always a hot topic around here.

Here's a link to the article.

Here's a quote:

We're really past the point of calling this a controversy. That's a word that's used and I don't know why, because in the research there really is no controversy," she said in an interview.


"If we had this level of consistency in findings in any other area of health, we would be acting on it. We'd be pulling out all the stops to work on the issue."


Durant and co-author Ron Ensom, with the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa, cite research showing that physical punishment makes children more aggressive and antisocial, and can cause cognitive impairment and developmental difficulties.



Kids are for hugging, not hitting.



I could not agree more MM.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2012 - 8:46PM #3
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,073

It wasn't the spanking that made me aware my father didn't love me.  It was the fact he outright said so.  Spanking was tame according to my various family tree branches, where actual branches used to be used for the grandparents' generation.  I could even accept spanking for something I did wrong.  What made him a monster was when I DIDN'T do anything wrong and he just felt like expressing his testosterone-fueled need to dominate.  I'm not convinced a sharp pat on the backside, with the relevance completely known, is ultimately bad.  What hurt wasn't a slap on the butt that stung for only a few moments.  Hell, I got paddled in school.  Even HE didn't do that ... and they used ones with holes.  Yes, I understand that you're going to tell me that it's not normal and real men wouldn't yadda yadda, but in my life, I'm a smart girl and I can tell when I've done something wrong and when I haven't.  It's when punishment started becoming arbitrary that I realized the problem wasn't me.


That being said, I almost never strike my dogs.  A light tap with a towel or a stern face and voice are all that's required for them to get the picture.  I would never do something more painful than it had to be.  Am I subconsciously acknowledging that spanking is bad?  Well, perhaps, but I also recognize that their mother would grab them by the neck with her teeth.  Any punishment I've done pales in comparison to what their own parents would've done.  I still think physical subordination has its uses.  *shrugs*  Sorry, but some people laugh at time outs behind your back.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2012 - 9:06PM #4
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Feb 12, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Iwantamotto wrote:

It wasn't the spanking that made me aware my father didn't love me.  It was the fact he outright said so....


Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse.


...  I still think physical subordination has its uses.


Not with children.


Sorry, but some people laugh at time outs behind your back.


As long as they are on "time out" it doesn't matter, and "time outs" are not the only form of punishment. The punishment must fit the kid and the situation. I found that with positive reinforcement I rarely had to discipline my daughters.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2012 - 11:54PM #5
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Feb 12, 2012 -- 9:06PM, mountain_man wrote:


Feb 12, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Iwantamotto wrote:

It wasn't the spanking that made me aware my father didn't love me.  It was the fact he outright said so....


Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse.


...  I still think physical subordination has its uses.


Not with children.


Sorry, but some people laugh at time outs behind your back.


As long as they are on "time out" it doesn't matter, and "time outs" are not the only form of punishment. The punishment must fit the kid and the situation. I found that with positive reinforcement I rarely had to discipline my daughters.




MM, I thought spanking went out two generations ago--am I naive.


We talked to our children--no time-outs, which I tend to think encourage a certain rage.


I can count on two fingers punishments handed out.


Parents who reason with children have reasonable children.


I had a mother who ws toe-the-line and by six I knew a gazillion ways around her. My Dad reasoned with me always and it worked. I'm certain my kids got around us, too, but not in anything that mattered. When my son was in high school rolling with toilet paper was a hot "thing". I remember he was furious with a classmate, son of a Lutheran minister, who "stole" toilet paper from the school. His reasoning was they could have bought it--not a bad kid.


 



 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 12:08AM #6
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Feb 12, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


It wasn't the spanking that made me aware my father didn't love me.  It was the fact he outright said so.  Spanking was tame according to my various family tree branches, where actual branches used to be used for the grandparents' generation.  I could even accept spanking for something I did wrong.  What made him a monster was when I DIDN'T do anything wrong and he just felt like expressing his testosterone-fueled need to dominate.  I'm not convinced a sharp pat on the backside, with the relevance completely known, is ultimately bad.  What hurt wasn't a slap on the butt that stung for only a few moments.  Hell, I got paddled in school.  Even HE didn't do that ... and they used ones with holes.  Yes, I understand that you're going to tell me that it's not normal and real men wouldn't yadda yadda, but in my life, I'm a smart girl and I can tell when I've done something wrong and when I haven't.  It's when punishment started becoming arbitrary that I realized the problem wasn't me.


That being said, I almost never strike my dogs.  A light tap with a towel or a stern face and voice are all that's required for them to get the picture.  I would never do something more painful than it had to be.  Am I subconsciously acknowledging that spanking is bad?  Well, perhaps, but I also recognize that their mother would grab them by the neck with her teeth.  Any punishment I've done pales in comparison to what their own parents would've done.  I still think physical subordination has its uses.  *shrugs*  Sorry, but some people laugh at time outs behind your back.




I cannot believe this post.


My chidren are long grown with teen children of their own and my oldest grandson on scholarship at MIT. We never hit our children and theris have never been hit.


Nor did we ever punish our dogs. We always laughed when our Norwegian Elhound tried to smuggle his rawhides into the house in his jaw. He was my husband's beloved companion. My little malti-poo is just a minor rascal and I love it and him. He makes me smile and laugh. It's a love affair--we are just members oft the pack. What he loves most is to be where I am and try to figure out where I'll be--and he usually guesses right.


Our dogs love us--return it.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 10:07AM #7
TemplarS
Posts: 6,600

Feb 12, 2012 -- 11:54PM, jane2 wrote:


Parents who reason with children have reasonable children.






A degree of reason appropriate to the age of the child is necessary. 


It is not necessary for a young child to fully understand the reasons behind a parental decision, though I think it is helpful for the parent to explain it anyway.  Just understand that it is not, at a young age, a negotiation.  Kids are experts at manipulation; I remember "I'll be good at the store if you buy me a toy."  Yeah, right.  Start negotiating with a five-year-old, you are toast once they become a teenager.


But the lack of reasoning ability on the part of a child is no excuse for abusive behavior.  Dogs cannot reason about many things they must be trained to do, and no dog trainer I know (and I know a number of them) recommends the use of pain as a training aid.  I have had a hightly dominant German Shepherd since he was a puppy.  And it is a good thing I did not use physical violence as a training tool, since now, in a physical contest between me and him, guess who would win?

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 1:34PM #8
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779

Feb 13, 2012 -- 12:08AM, jane2 wrote:


Feb 12, 2012 -- 8:46PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


It wasn't the spanking that made me aware my father didn't love me.  It was the fact he outright said so.  Spanking was tame according to my various family tree branches, where actual branches used to be used for the grandparents' generation.  I could even accept spanking for something I did wrong.  What made him a monster was when I DIDN'T do anything wrong and he just felt like expressing his testosterone-fueled need to dominate.  I'm not convinced a sharp pat on the backside, with the relevance completely known, is ultimately bad.  What hurt wasn't a slap on the butt that stung for only a few moments.  Hell, I got paddled in school.  Even HE didn't do that ... and they used ones with holes.  Yes, I understand that you're going to tell me that it's not normal and real men wouldn't yadda yadda, but in my life, I'm a smart girl and I can tell when I've done something wrong and when I haven't.  It's when punishment started becoming arbitrary that I realized the problem wasn't me.


That being said, I almost never strike my dogs.  A light tap with a towel or a stern face and voice are all that's required for them to get the picture.  I would never do something more painful than it had to be.  Am I subconsciously acknowledging that spanking is bad?  Well, perhaps, but I also recognize that their mother would grab them by the neck with her teeth.  Any punishment I've done pales in comparison to what their own parents would've done.  I still think physical subordination has its uses.  *shrugs*  Sorry, but some people laugh at time outs behind your back.




I cannot believe this post.


My chidren are long grown with teen children of their own and my oldest grandson on scholarship at MIT. We never hit our children and theris have never been hit.


Nor did we ever punish our dogs. We always laughed when our Norwegian Elhound tried to smuggle his rawhides into the house in his jaw. He was my husband's beloved companion. My little malti-poo is just a minor rascal and I love it and him. He makes me smile and laugh. It's a love affair--we are just members oft the pack. What he loves most is to be where I am and try to figure out where I'll be--and he usually guesses right.


Our dogs love us--return it.




 




I would never hit an child or an animal. Neither would truly understand why it was being abused. Animal never would. My dog has taught me a lot, and behaves wonderfully, never hit.


Hitting is abuse, and it for the benefit of the abuser, not the abused. You are a good lady Jane.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 3:59PM #9
Ebon
Posts: 10,134

From my memory of being a child, I remember that threatening to withdraw treats (such as the book that Grimmer brought me every week) was much better at getting me to behave than physical punishment. Partly I suspect that's because, even then, I had an unusually high pain threshold and a "screw you" turn of mind.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 9:35PM #10
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Feb 12, 2012 -- 11:54PM, jane2 wrote:

MM, I thought spanking went out two generations ago--am I naive.


A bit. It's still popular.


We talked to our children--no time-outs, which I tend to think encourage a certain rage.


It depends on the child. Works great for some kids, others not so much.


I can count on two fingers punishments handed out.


Parents who reason with children have reasonable children.


My two girls turned out be very reasonable, well adjusted, adults. We talked, punishment was creative and fairly rare.


I had a mother who ws toe-the-line and by six I knew a gazillion ways around her. My Dad reasoned with me always and it worked. I'm certain my kids got around us, too, but not in anything that mattered. When my son was in high school rolling with toilet paper was a hot "thing". I remember he was furious with a classmate, son of a Lutheran minister, who "stole" toilet paper from the school. His reasoning was they could have bought it--not a bad kid.


When my mother was around she hit.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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