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Switch to Forum Live View Bacon and cancer: A link?
3 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 9:49PM #51
Ferretling
Posts: 254

And, I'm sorry, but... I also hate that plants, that anything, actually, has to die so that I can live. But that's life. Why is the death of a pig worse than the death of a sugar cane plant?


Research now shows that plants communicate to other nearby plants when they are being eaten.


Why is a pig woth more?


Sorry, but unless you can live on sunlight alone, life dies so other life lives. That's how it works.


I don't see that killing a plant is somehow less killing than killing a pig.


The keys are being respectful and minimizing the suffering of whatever it is we are eating.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 10:04PM #52
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 21, 2012 -- 8:18PM, REteach wrote:


I, too, heard about the risk of grilled meat and cancer in high school in about 1974 or 1975.


The problem with studies like this is that there is a difference between relative risk and absolute risk.


In the US the rate is about 11/100,000. increasing the rate by 19% increases your risk to what, about 13/100,000.  Ooh, I am shaking in my boots.  


 Smokers have a higher rate, 2.5 times that of nonsmokers.    Moral of the story:  don't smoke. It's a bigger problem than bacon. 




And especially -- don't smoke bacon cigarettes.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 10:11PM #53
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 21, 2012 -- 9:49PM, Ferretling wrote:


And, I'm sorry, but... I also hate that plants, that anything, actually, has to die so that I can live. But that's life. Why is the death of a pig worse than the death of a sugar cane plant?


Research now shows that plants communicate to other nearby plants when they are being eaten.


Why is a pig woth more?


Sorry, but unless you can live on sunlight alone, life dies so other life lives. That's how it works.


I don't see that killing a plant is somehow less killing than killing a pig.


The keys are being respectful and minimizing the suffering of whatever it is we are eating.





I've done some thinking on these things. And yes, killing isn't pretty -- and can even seem barbaric and cruel.


And PETA types love to talk about "enslaved" animals.


The trouble is, I know enough that when I compare the life, and death, of a wild cervid, bovine or swine compared to what domestic stock go through -- it still comes down strongly in favor of the domestic stock -- in terms of suffering, terror and peril.


Every day on my way to and from work I drive past pastures with beef cattle in them. There they are, all their needs met. No need to worry where their next meal is coming from, or how to evade predators, or whether they might freeze or starve, or die of thirst or an infected wound -- all the things wild beasts face day to day -- minute to minute.


As far as death. Well, there are no retirement homes in nature. Sure, slaughterhouses aren't pretty. And videos of domestic pigs being hung upside down and having their throats slashed might be offensive to some.


But a wild pig has not nearly so pleasant an option when it comes to dying. Freezing, starving, being eaten while still half alive by a predator -- these are the fates wild animals face.


I don't think domestic animals care a crap about being "property" or a "commidity." And under our posession and care, they have far better lives -- and deaths, than they probably would otherwise.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 11:06PM #54
solfeggio
Posts: 9,468

Whenever the subject of the sufferings of animals in factory farms comes up, somebody always always brings up the fact of the so-called 'sufferings' of plants, as if somehow the feelings of a stalk of wheat could ever possibly equal how a pig feels when it is being shoved into the slaughterhouse, hoisted up on one leg, and had its throat cut.


Or that carrots experience what that that same pig feels when, not yet dead, he is put through the scalding bath to take off bristles.


We don't know what a cabbage feels when it is cut, but we sure as hell do know how a pig or a chicken or a cow or a lamb feels when it has its throat cut.  They are living, breathing, feeling animals, and the pain they feel is very real indeed.


To compare the feelings of a cabbage or a rice plant to that of a screaming pig is disgusting.


In any case, human beings do not need to kill to eat.  Apples, oranges, bananas, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash, pumpking, and many other fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds were MEANT by the plant for consumption by other animals.  They fall from the stalk or the tree or the bush.


And don't try to tell me an apple feels pain, or a handful of walnuts is screaming in agony when gathered.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2012 - 11:16PM #55
solfeggio
Posts: 9,468

mytmouse -


Not you or anybody else has a clue what our fellow animals might think - about anything.  And you sure as hell don't know what they would say if asked if they would rather live free for however long their lives might be, or to be kept on a farm for the three of four years allotted to them by the farmer.


But, if they are anything like humans, they would certainly rather be free. 


Slaughterhouse deaths are not kind.  They're not gentle.  And yes, maybe a death in the wild isn't kind, either, but, on the other hand, at least the animal has the chance to live a few more years, and maybe s/he will die a natural death in the end.  OK, so it's not common, but the option is there, whilst it isn't in the factory farm situation.


Stop trying to always make excuses for the miserable, wretched ways in which we humans treat other species, and face up to the fact that we really don't give a sh*t about the sufferings of our fellow animals as long as we can have our burgers and pork chops and other crappy so-called 'foods' to stuff our fat faces.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 12:21AM #56
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Solf,


ARA rants always lose me at "fellow animals."


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 2:53AM #57
karbie
Posts: 3,329

My father-in-law died of bladder cancer. (He might have had a better chance if he hadn't waited a year after first passing blood to finally agree to go to the doctor.) Dad liked bacon and red meat. They had processed luncheon meats for sandwiches. He also always had a large vegetable garden.


I think it would be very difficult to assign blame for his cancer or anyone else's solely on just his consumption of processed meat. Both of his parents died from cancer. He worked in an automotive factory among chemicals far more deadly than bacon. Bacon doesn't dissolve your shoes and turn your toenails green, for one example.


He was a smoker, having picked up the habit when a lot of GIs did in WWII, when the nice tobacco companies donated cigarettes for our service men.


I know that he didn't eat a lot of bacon or processed meat growing up. At one point when the family had been without food for a few days, his oldest sister was about to take the little ones to the river to drown them rather than watch them starve to death. Dad had found a gold ring by the river. He'd brought home fish, and the sale of the ring bought enough groceries that everyone lived.


We just heard that his 90 year old sister has just been diagnosed with cancer again. She had a breast removed 40 years ago. Another brother also died of cancer. Two siblings died of heart attacks.


So many variables are responsible for who develops cancer and who doesn't that it's hard to point to a few slices of bacon and decide that if someone had been taking better care of themselves they could have prevented it.


I do avoid things that have high fructose corn syrup because I'm allergic to corn. Hunt's has a wide variety of spaghetti sauces that don't contain the corn syrup for anyone who is trying to  avoid it themselves.


Once you get into the emotional and derogatory comments about everyone feeding their "fat faces" it is way over the top and turns people off.


Why doesn't everyone jump on the bandwagon? Because there are starving people in this country and around the world and no one particularly gets too excited over them. It's like the people eating "bush meat"--chimpanzees, orangutans, and other varieties of primates. I hate it, but in war-torn areas, there isn't a lot of food available and what there is costs too much. the largest cause of death among the cute little capuchin monkeys is being eaten by other capuchin monkeys because they like meat and it certainly gets rid of invaders to their territories permanently.


As far as wild boars are concerned--especially the giant ones some idiot hunters imported from Russia--without guns we'd be just another meal. Hippos, alligators, crocodiles, tigers, lions, cougars, coyotes and increasingly bears appear to consider us as much meat on the hoof  around the world as we view other mammals. The giant boa constrictors and pythons in Florida that seem to be having a population explosion were probably pets until they got too big to handle and too expensive to feed. After some neighborhood pets disappear, they get dumped into the Everglades where they are taking over.


In a perfect world we would discover a food source that would provide us with our nutrients without the need of any other animal dying so that we can live. Chickens eat bugs, we eat chickens. Some of the best beef comes from South America because it feeds on grass like our cattle used to. No chemicals, antibiotics, or other additives like ours.


Until we treat other humans with respect and care about what happens to them, we aren't going to give up eating other animals as long as we can afford it. I just don't want that perfect food to be Soylent Green.

"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 4:04AM #58
Ferretling
Posts: 254

Jan 21, 2012 -- 11:06PM, solfeggio wrote:


Whenever the subject of the sufferings of animals in factory farms comes up, somebody always always brings up the fact of the so-called 'sufferings' of plants, as if somehow the feelings of a stalk of wheat could ever possibly equal how a pig feels when it is being shoved into the slaughterhouse, hoisted up on one leg, and had its throat cut.


Or that carrots experience what that that same pig feels when, not yet dead, he is put through the scalding bath to take off bristles.


We don't know what a cabbage feels when it is cut, but we sure as hell do know how a pig or a chicken or a cow or a lamb feels when it has its throat cut.  They are living, breathing, feeling animals, and the pain they feel is very real indeed.


To compare the feelings of a cabbage or a rice plant to that of a screaming pig is disgusting.


In any case, human beings do not need to kill to eat.  Apples, oranges, bananas, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash, pumpking, and many other fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds were MEANT by the plant for consumption by other animals.  They fall from the stalk or the tree or the bush.


And don't try to tell me an apple feels pain, or a handful of walnuts is screaming in agony when gathered.





And by our biology, Solf, we are MEANT to be omnivorous. If you want to use the "meant by nayre" argument about plant parts, you need to follow it through completely. Humans in PART of the world can live PART of the year on plants without killing them. However, that isn't everywhewre, and it isn't every-when, either.


You do realize of course, that more animals die to get me one pint of frozen strawberries in winter than if I were to eat an animal, don't you?


You realize the ecological damage caused by transportation, amongst other things, don't you?


It is easy to look at live animals and say, don't eat them, but one has to add up the hidden costs of alternative foods.


My contribution to animal welfare is to make certain that I get, as often as I can afford, meat from animals that have been humanely raised and humanely killed.


And no, you don't know how the plant feels. But just because it is a plant doesn't mean it does not feel pain.


You seem to be upset that the plant argument comes up, but here's the thing.


If you're going to post an argument that boils down to-- be compassionate and don't kill other animals for food because just because they aren't human doesn't mean they don't feel-- then you need to follow the argument all the way to the natural end, or else you risk hypocritical double-standards. Just because they're plants and we can't fathom the way they feel pain and/or perceive the world, it does not mean they cannot experience anguish. In fact, one might argue that, as we do not know, we ought to be more careful.


Or, you know, we can not take anything to ridiculous extremes and just try to make sure that we contribute as little as possible to the suffering of other living beings, no matter their species or phyla.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 8:48AM #59
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Jan 21, 2012 -- 6:50PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Warning: Being alive will eventually kill you.


Exercise, eat well - and die anyway.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 22, 2012 - 12:05PM #60
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Jan 17, 2012 -- 3:10AM, Yavanna wrote:

Jan 16, 2012 -- 5:31PM, Erey wrote:


Yvanna makes the point that you seem to be refering to processed bacon.  My bacon is not processed, it is flesh out of a certain part of the pig.  Turkey bacon is highly processed, soy bacon also.  Regular bacon, not processed. 


Those who are paid to give advice about food and nutrition are saying that it is better just to eat the pork bacon vs. the turkey bacon because there is so much salt and chemicals in the turkey bacon. 




Yep. I rarely eat turkey bacon as a result. Maybe once or twice a year. Of course I don't eat regular bacon at all.


The nitrites and nitrates are the culprits; the source of the meat is incidental.

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