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Switch to Forum Live View French fries and burgers are bad, but walnuts and yogurt are good
3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 1:45PM #201
IDBC
Posts: 4,454

Howdy Solf  


Even vegan diets are not without their drawbacks. 


www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/11...


 


ScienceDaily (Feb. 15, 2011) — People who follow a vegan lifestyle -- strict vegetarians who try to eat no meat or animal products of any kind -- may increase their risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or "hardening of the arteries," which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke. That's the conclusion of a review of dozens of articles published on the biochemistry of vegetarianism during the past 30 years.


I think we can all agree that what to eat and not to eat is a complex subject. 


 


There are many different factors to consider.  


 I also think that what a person eats or doesn't eat is their choice.  


 


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 1:57PM #202
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,035

Jul 5, 2011 -- 11:22PM, solfeggio wrote:


Girlchristian -


Thank you for your very interesting post.  I appreciate your answering so soon!


Anyway, my husband and I have been vegan for about twenty-five years now, I guess.  We were previously vegetarians.  Then, one day, my husband said: Let's go vegan.  Huh?  I said.  I had no idea what a vegan was!  So, he explained that we'd have to give up the yogurt, which I loved, and no more milk or eggs, etc. 


I admit that I wasn't too keen on the whole idea at first, thinking that, since cows didn't have to die to give milk, or chickens to lay eggs, I didn't see why we couldn't just keep on being vegetarians.  But, he explained that even milk cows go to the slaughterhouse eventually, that male baby chicks are put into a grinder, and battery hen farms are really horrible places.


We shouldn't be supporting these industries just because we like to eat yogurt and fried eggs, he told me, and I agreed.  Once you look into the animal agriculture industry, it's like a house of horrors.


So, we went vegan, and it really was no big deal.  We eat pretty much what everybody else eats, just without the meat/dairy.


For myself, I never did smoke, and I don't drink, but this is mainly because my brother is an alcoholic, as were other family members, and I didn't want to end up that way.  And I don't eat any processed sugar because diabetes runs in our family and I really don't want to develop that disease if I can possibly help it.  I'm practically an expert on low GI foods and plan all my meals around them.


But, then, I'm pushing 70 and, as our (much younger) GP is always cautioning, as we get older we do tend to be more at risk for age-related illnesses.




Thanks for sharing! I was never able to go vegan, despite trying several times. Due to a bladder condition, I can no longer have soy (for whatever reason, it aggravates the condition) so I pretty much avoid all the "fake" meat products even though I used to love them!


Like you, diabetes runs in my family so I exercise and monitor my sugar. I've never even tested high so I'm doing okay. I'm 5'8" and 130 pounds so being overweight wouldn't be a concern for me either.




"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 2:24PM #203
Ebon
Posts: 10,122

Jul 5, 2011 -- 11:05PM, solfeggio wrote:

  We didn't evolve drinking cow's milk.



Yes, we did. Cows were domesticated somewhere between 9,000 and 11,000 years ago and we have been evolving ever since then. Evolution doesn't just stop.


And yes, yes, it is true that most sources tell people to 'reduce' or 'cut down' consumption of red meat but, my point, as always is: If even a little is bad for you, why eat the stuff at all?



A) Because a little isn't bad for you. A little is pretty neutral health-wise. B) I smoke about forty a day and while I'm aware that I'm not the world's greatest advertisment for mental health, a life lived avoiding all risk is a very dull life.


We should add that the sources do say that people should AVOID processed meats entirely.  There is nothing ambiguous about that.



That much, we have agreement on. As I've said many times: If you're a meat-eater, don't buy supermarket meat. Help out a small businessman and use your local butcher instead.


Jul 5, 2011 -- 11:05PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

You are not disagreeing with me. I  said that the lack of harmful effect of consuming small amounts of meat  does not mean that eating meat is healthy. That means exactly what it  says; in no way am I suggesting that if something does not promote good  health, it must promote sickness. I don't know any way to say it more  clearly; from a purely medical perspective, a small amount of meat in  the diet is irrelevant.



You got caught up in my irritation. For which, I apologise.


And the general message is just what I said: vegetarianism is a healthy  way to live, healthier than the typical meat-based diet, but that may be  in part because the typical meat-based diet (at least in America) is  pretty heavy in meat content.



That would be my suspician as well. As a general guideline, I would guess that meat content should be kept to slightly under a pound a week.


A well planned diet that includes small  amounts of meat is not really different from a vegetarian diet in terms  of health impact. If it is false to claim that even a small amount of  meat is unhealthy, it is equally false to claim that meat is good for  health. And what is true is that substantial amounts of meat are  unhealthy.



On this, we agree.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 2:38PM #204
Abner1
Posts: 6,357

Ebon wrote:


> Yes, we did. Cows were domesticated somewhere between 9,000 and 11,000 years


> ago and we have been evolving ever since then. Evolution doesn't just stop.


Interestingly, scientists have found that the lactose-tolerance genes in humans evolved on three separate occasions and have rapidly spread through large sections of the human population since then.  This indicates that lactose tolerance is a very valuable positive trait - that it very much helps the survival of people who have it.


Also interestingly, human gene variants have also been showing up that make the carriers basically immune to the effects of high-cholesterol diets ... and yes, they're spreading too, though they haven't gotten as far yet.  There are also some small populations who have adapted to a diet that is extremely high in meat, even fat (such as the Inuit).


As you say, evolution just doesn't stop.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 6:13PM #205
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

Everybody is being reasonable, which is good. 


Where animal rights are concerned, I can get kind of weird at times, so I apologise if people thought I was rude in previous posts.  You might say I was just being emphatic whilst trying to make a point.  What I should have been saying was that I hate the act but not the person.


As Heretic pointed out, we all follow our own path in life, and we all carry our own baggage.  I freely admit that I follow 'the road not taken' most of the time.


Anyway, it's true that humans keep on evolving, and that certain groups have, indeed, managed to evolve to the point where they can consume the milk of other species without adverse effects.  But, it is also true that milk really is an infant food, and it is true that humans are the only species that feels the need to use milk after infancy, or that uses the milk of another species.


It's also true that most of us are lactose intolerant because we lack the enzyme lactase to break down lactose.


And, as some of the other links I cited earlier show, dairy consumption has been linked to various illnesses. 


Generally speaking, cow's milk isn't the ideal food product the dairy industry would have you believe.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 9:13PM #206
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Jul 6, 2011 -- 1:45PM, IDBC wrote:


Howdy Solf  


Even vegan diets are not without their drawbacks. 


www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/11...


 


ScienceDaily (Feb. 15, 2011) — People who follow a vegan lifestyle -- strict vegetarians who try to eat no meat or animal products of any kind -- may increase their risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or "hardening of the arteries," which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke. That's the conclusion of a review of dozens of articles published on the biochemistry of vegetarianism during the past 30 years.


I think we can all agree that what to eat and not to eat is a complex subject. 


 


There are many different factors to consider.  


 I also think that what a person eats or doesn't eat is their choice.  


 


 




WIth respect, Abner, I think you have oversimplified the health issue. Here, in place of the news story to which you provided a link, is the actual abstract of the article by Li:


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204526


Now note that this paper is about biomarkers of disease risk, not incidence of disease. The clearest link between a vegan diet and an abnormality in a biomarker is B12, since this vitamin is difficult (but not impossible) to obtain via purely plant sources. Yet we do not see vegans routinely succumbing to pernicious anemia, the consequence of B12 deficiency. There have indeed been some case reports, especially in infants breastfed by B12-deficient mothers, but the majority of cases of pernicious anemia have nothing to do with diet (most occur in older people, who are also subject to microcytic forms of anemia, and in people with gastric disorders that leave them deficient in Intrinsic Factor, which is necessary for B12 absorption).


Here is a review that tells a different story:


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20701748


This review finds that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of venous thromboembolism, whereas the paper by Li noted that certain biomarker values characteristic of vegetarian and especially vegan diets might be associated with increased VTE risk.


All of which is to say that disease risk is a lot more complex than might be suspected from looking at biomarker assays.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 9:17PM #207
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,775

I am a vegetarian working towards veganism, my blood tests come out incredibly well, and that is as I recover from cancer treatement.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 9:53PM #208
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jul 6, 2011 -- 9:17PM, mainecaptain wrote:


I am a vegetarian working towards veganism, my blood tests come out incredibly well, and that is as I recover from cancer treatement.




My hopes and poor prayers are with you, mc.




discuss catholicism
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 10:24PM #209
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Mainecaptain,


I had no idea you have been under treatment for cancer. I hope your recovery will be complete, and that you will continue to grace Beliefnet with your gentle spiritual insights for a long time to come.


Sincerely,


Heretic--your friend

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2011 - 10:41PM #210
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,775

Jul 6, 2011 -- 10:24PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


Mainecaptain,


I had no idea you have been under treatment for cancer. I hope your recovery will be complete, and that you will continue to grace Beliefnet with your gentle spiritual insights for a long time to come.


Sincerely,


Heretic--your friend





 


(((((((((((Heretic)))))))))) thank you so much, friends like you, make my life even more precious

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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