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Switch to Forum Live View Social Security fund slides into permanent deficit
3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 12:56PM #51
Ebon
Posts: 9,846

Jan 28, 2011 -- 12:34PM, farragut wrote:

Some estimates put the under-the-table economy at around 10% of the total economy; I suspect that the IRS could probably provide a more informed estimate. Nevertheless, I opine that if we could find ways to more effectively enforce, or gain compliance with, current regulations, we could make significant progress.



Agreed but the question is how? The part of that economy that is illegal is, by definition, untaxable (interestingly, that was Al Capone's defence: He didn't realise he had to pay tax on illegal gains). Now personally, I think that prostitution, gambling and quite a few (but not all) drugs should be legal and regulated but both of our countries are really good at banning things and really lousy at legalising them.


The other side of the black market, the cash-in-hand workers, are likewise difficult to deal with. That market exists either because the workers are undocumented aliens, actively trying to say "off the grid" or simply don't want to pay taxes. I agree that enforcement of existing provisions could be a lot better but enforcement is pretty much the only direction it's possible to go in.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 3:21PM #52
Hatman
Posts: 9,634

Jan 28, 2011 -- 12:34PM, farragut wrote:

There is one other potential source of revenue that has not been noted in this discussion. That is the untaxed underground economy. It consists, as you know, of a good deal of illicit activity, drugs, prostitution, etc. There is also a substantial component of generally legitimate work that is carried on on  a cash basis with no reporting, no tax. I've seen any number of people engaged in, and doing very well at, tree-trimming, carpentry, painting, computer repair, etc., who insist on only cash. No checks or credit cards, please.


Some estimates put the under-the-table economy at around 10% of the total economy; I suspect that the IRS could probably provide a more informed estimate. Nevertheless, I opine that if we could find ways to more effectively enforce, or gain compliance with, current regulations, we could make significant progress.


Well, a variation of the Tobin tax plan would take care of a good deal of that; some have also proposed a "value added tax" similar to that of the UK, wherein the tax would be incorporated into the price of all goods, and "income tax" would be eliminated.

i prefer the former.  The way i understand it would work is like this:

Everyone and every corporate entity making a deposit or withdrawal from any bank or banking-type industry would be required to have 1/2 of 1% of that amount be a contribution to the general government and/or State government where the transaction took place.

Nowadays, more than 1 trillion changes hands EVERY DAY just on currency speculation alone.  So let's consider just that.

1% of 1 trillion comes to 10 billion; 1/2 of that is 5 billion, every trading day.  Assuming 200 trading days per year, that'd be 1 trillion in tax collected from JUST THAT ONE set of trades per day.
Obviously, the rest of stock purchases and sales, commodity purchases and sales, deposits into and withdrawals from any other bank or credit union, etc., will also amount to a tidy sum---and ALL OTHER TAXES COULD BE ELIMINATED.

For Joe and Jane American, this would amount to 5 bux for every thousand they put in or took out of the bank.
Since there would no longer be any of a huge multitude of taxes---no more on gasoline, no more on cigarettes or beer, no more on sales of any item whatsoever, no more on phones or natural gas or electricity or water, etc., the net effect would be a HUGE increase in not only purchasing power, but also the ability to be generous and donate.

And the oppressive nature of the I.nfernal R.epresentatives of S.atan would be eliminated forever.

The sigh of relief from all over America would be tremendous---except from the money-managers of huge firms and/or obscenely wealthy billionaires, who'd squeeeeeal like stuck pigs.

With goodwill to all the People-

Hatman

"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2011 - 9:40PM #53
JoliverJOLLY
Posts: 440

Jan 28, 2011 -- 3:21PM, Hatman wrote:

Jan 28, 2011 -- 12:34PM, farragut wrote:


There is one other potential source of revenue that has not been noted in this discussion. That is the untaxed underground economy. It consists, as you know, of a good deal of illicit activity, drugs, prostitution, etc. There is also a substantial component of generally legitimate work that is carried on on  a cash basis with no reporting, no tax. I've seen any number of people engaged in, and doing very well at, tree-trimming, carpentry, painting, computer repair, etc., who insist on only cash. No checks or credit cards, please.


Some estimates put the under-the-table economy at around 10% of the total economy; I suspect that the IRS could probably provide a more informed estimate. Nevertheless, I opine that if we could find ways to more effectively enforce, or gain compliance with, current regulations, we could make significant progress.




Well, a variation of the Tobin tax plan would take care of a good deal of that; some have also proposed a "value added tax" similar to that of the UK, wherein the tax would be incorporated into the price of all goods, and "income tax" would be eliminated.




Well in Britian VAT is on all goods except food, although that has changed recently and some foods are included now I believe(although I have not really looked into but it has changed).


As for income tax it's called P.A.Y.E, pay as you earn, and on top of that we also have National Insurence, which comes out of the pay packet as well. So they pay packet is taxed twice and so are all the things you buy.


 


Jan 28, 2011 -- 3:21PM, Hatman wrote:


i prefer the former. The way i understand it would work is like this: Everyone and every corporate entity making a deposit or withdrawal from any bank or banking-type industry would be required to have 1/2 of 1% of that amount be a contribution to the general government and/or State government where the transaction took place. Nowadays, more than 1 trillion changes hands EVERY DAY just on currency speculation alone. So let's consider just that. 1% of 1 trillion comes to 10 billion; 1/2 of that is 5 billion, every trading day. Assuming 200 trading days per year, that'd be 1 trillion in tax collected from JUST THAT ONE set of trades per day. Obviously, the rest of stock purchases and sales, commodity purchases and sales, deposits into and withdrawals from any other bank or credit union, etc., will also amount to a tidy sum---and ALL OTHER TAXES COULD BE ELIMINATED.




Yet business will pass on the extra cost, to the consumers themselves, just as they will pay people less and then the difference use, to pay any tax on employment. They always will look to pass off the Tax and keep their money by getting others to pay the tax for them. 


 


Jan 28, 2011 -- 3:21PM, Hatman wrote:


For Joe and Jane American, this would amount to 5 bux for every thousand they put in or took out of the bank. Since there would no longer be any of a huge multitude of taxes---no more on gasoline, no more on cigarettes or beer, no more on sales of any item whatsoever, no more on phones or natural gas or electricity or water, etc.,




But that is what VAT tax is imposed upon. Beer, cigerette, petrol, and it Britian it's very high, you'll pay arround two to three euros in europe for cigs, and arround 9 euros in Britian the VAT is a driect relation to that, as the majority of the cost is taxation, but they are taxed twice really VAT formerly at 17.5% and then extra tax on top, or you could see it as a different tax all together, a just for cigs tax.


On top of that companies are paying less and charging more to increase their profits, the result is a situation in which people earn less, either by way of business cost cutting and tax. and then they face an increase in the costs of goods by companies, who increase costs for profit, which generally they achieve by demanding producers reduce the amount they charge per unit or simply by slowly increasing charges for the goods.


We end up in a situation where no one has money and almost all people are forced to borrow to live.


What a person earns is eaten if not by tax, by company desire for profits. Companies pay less yet charge more, with the low cost goods they provide, it's the bottomline farmers and other producers that take the hit, or it stems for sweet shop aboard.


   

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2011 - 10:33PM #54
Ebon
Posts: 9,846

Jan 29, 2011 -- 9:40PM, JoliverJOLLY wrote:

Well in Britian VAT is on all goods except food, although that has changed recently and some foods are included now I believe(although I have not really looked into but it has changed).



Not quite all. Certain goods (such as books, magazines and baby/children's clothes) are exempt.


As for income tax it's called P.A.Y.E, pay as you earn, and on top of that we also have National Insurence, which comes out of the pay packet as well. So they pay packet is taxed twice and so are all the things you buy.



Again, not quite. PAYE doesn't replace income tax, it's just a convienient way to collect income tax. And NI is just our version of Social Security.


But that is what VAT tax is imposed upon. Beer, cigerette, petrol, and it Britian it's very high, you'll pay arround two to three euros in europe for cigs, and arround 9 euros in Britian the VAT is a driect relation to that, as the majority of the cost is taxation, but they are taxed twice really VAT formerly at 17.5% and then extra tax on top, or you could see it as a different tax all together, a just for cigs tax.



The tax on cigs is high to pay for NHS treatment of smoking related conditions. The NHS spends about 6.8 billion (pounds, I'm on my stand-by keyboard which doesn't have a pound key) annually to treat smoking related illness. Tobacco taxes bring in about 10 billion annually. Likewise, the tax on alcohol funds NHS treatment of drinking related conditions. This actually seems entirely fair to me. I have a habit (smoking) which is likely to damage my health, so I pay more tax to fund the care that may be needed.


What a person earns is eaten if not by tax, by company desire for profits. Companies pay less yet charge more, with the low cost goods they provide, it's the bottomline farmers and other producers that take the hit, or it stems for sweet shop aboard.



I think you've hit on the main problem here, the fact that wages have been stagnant for years while prices have continued to go up.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2011 - 8:46PM #55
JoliverJOLLY
Posts: 440

Jan 29, 2011 -- 10:33PM, Ebon wrote:


Jan 29, 2011 -- 9:40PM, JoliverJOLLY wrote:

Well in Britian VAT is on all goods except food, although that has changed recently and some foods are included now I believe(although I have not really looked into but it has changed).



Not quite all. Certain goods (such as books, magazines and baby/children's clothes) are exempt.




I'm sure some things still are, I was just pointing out that thinking VAT is americas answer to all tax issues, is probably wrong.


 


Jan 29, 2011 -- 10:33PM, Ebon wrote:


As for income tax it's called P.A.Y.E, pay as you earn, and on top of that we also have National Insurence, which comes out of the pay packet as well. So they pay packet is taxed twice and so are all the things you buy.



Again, not quite. PAYE doesn't replace income tax, it's just a convienient way to collect income tax. And NI is just our version of Social Security.




PAYE is a British form of income tax.


 


Jan 29, 2011 -- 10:33PM, Ebon wrote:


But that is what VAT tax is imposed upon. Beer, cigerette, petrol, and it Britian it's very high, you'll pay arround two to three euros in europe for cigs, and arround 9 euros in Britian the VAT is a driect relation to that, as the majority of the cost is taxation, but they are taxed twice really VAT formerly at 17.5% and then extra tax on top, or you could see it as a different tax all together, a just for cigs tax.



The tax on cigs is high to pay for NHS treatment of smoking related conditions. The NHS spends about 6.8 billion (pounds, I'm on my stand-by keyboard which doesn't have a pound key) annually to treat smoking related illness. Tobacco taxes bring in about 10 billion annually. Likewise, the tax on alcohol funds NHS treatment of drinking related conditions. This actually seems entirely fair to me. I have a habit (smoking) which is likely to damage my health, so I pay more tax to fund the care that may be needed.




Except it's not a directed Tax, it goes into a huge pot, if the NHS did get all the tax from smoking and drinking, along with National insurence(which is for state pension also), I don't think there would be half the problems of funding.


Besides that doctor will often refuse smokers helps, unless they quit.


 


Jan 29, 2011 -- 10:33PM, Ebon wrote:


What a person earns is eaten if not by tax, by company desire for profits. Companies pay less yet charge more, with the low cost goods they provide, it's the bottomline farmers and other producers that take the hit, or it stems for sweet shop aboard.



I think you've hit on the main problem here, the fact that wages have been stagnant for years while prices have continued to go up.




Money is debt and printed as debt- it's value comes from the tax governments raise to pay the bonds(its value comes from us the tax payer), causing all people and companies to become indebted eventually to those that print it, as the interest money is never printed yet expected(and seen as a value on the books), slowly interest expectations indebt everyone, except the super rich who can pay it back and still own.


The banks in America are not foreclosing on houses where the people have stopped paying, because they pretend the interest payments are still coming in, and hold these fake monies on their books, then show them as profits and take bonuses off of them, even though actually there is no money at all, fantasy profit, any monies they do have have come from the bailouts, or frount running bond sales which goldman sachs has done a lot, Goldman sachs buys the bonds from the treasury then sells them to the F.E.D. at a profit. Rather than the Fed just buying them straight from the treasury, simply because the people running all this are besty besty friends. 


That aside there are bank debts to be paid in the trillions undeclared, it's not going to matter how many bailout you give them, eventually they'll be asking for more again, they are intending to slowly unwind all these losses, and to slowly let the people pay it all for them. See the greed here they are not prepared to loose anything, when all of them should be bankrupt.


Then yes on top of the debt money system, the corporations and almost all business' today follow a make a much profit as is possible agenda. Lowering wages across the bourd, racking up prices where ever possible. How could this system not be brought to it's knees by the greedy idiots in charge of it? 


Even worse thou, those people are not captialists, in the free market sense, the free market stops them from accumulating wealth, as it promotes compertician, so they seek de-regualtion to allow them to do what they like, no rules at all. while at the same time getting government to pass legislation on "safety" etc which just so happens to match, their way of doing things, meaning that it ends up becomming a form of regulatory protectionism for them, as a smaller company will find it hard to put into place a lot of these "standards" the corporatons themselves have dictated.


While at the same time they get a free hand and are allowed to self-regulate how they behave within the market itself.


They are a law unto themselves, appear to have no moral fiber at all, and are happily going to screw everyone to stay on top, and keep what they have, seriouly bad business to think other people should pay, for your mistakes- but that's the system we have today, a bunch of free loading thieves, push all the costs and risks off on to others.


  


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2011 - 11:19AM #56
Ebon
Posts: 9,846

Jan 30, 2011 -- 8:46PM, JoliverJOLLY wrote:

PAYE is a British form of income tax.



Dude, I am British and I've lived here all my life. PAYE is just the collection method. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYE


Except it's not a directed Tax, it goes into a huge pot, if the NHS did get all the tax from smoking and drinking, along with National insurence(which is for state pension also), I don't think there would be half the problems of funding.



No, it's not directed and perhaps should be.


Besides that doctor will often refuse smokers helps, unless they quit.



I have never, ever, ever know that happen and it would be of extremely dubious legality if it did as doctors have a legal obligation for duty of care (Caparo Industries plc v. Dickman; Reeves v. Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis). I have known many people propose such a restriction but I've never once heard of it actually happening without being rebuffed by the courts.


Skipping the rest as I largely agree.



He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2011 - 8:58PM #57
JoliverJOLLY
Posts: 440

Jan 31, 2011 -- 11:19AM, Ebon wrote:


Jan 30, 2011 -- 8:46PM, JoliverJOLLY wrote:

PAYE is a British form of income tax.



Dude, I am British and I've lived here all my life. PAYE is just the collection method. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYE




 


As was I once.


 


Jan 31, 2011 -- 11:19AM, Ebon wrote:


Except it's not a directed Tax, it goes into a huge pot, if the NHS did get all the tax from smoking and drinking, along with National insurence(which is for state pension also), I don't think there would be half the problems of funding.



No, it's not directed and perhaps should be.




As I said, if.


 


Jan 31, 2011 -- 11:19AM, Ebon wrote:


Besides that doctor will often refuse smokers helps, unless they quit.



I have never, ever, ever know that happen and it would be of extremely dubious legality if it did as doctors have a legal obligation for duty of care (Caparo Industries plc v. Dickman; Reeves v. Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis). I have known many people propose such a restriction but I've never once heard of it actually happening without being rebuffed by the courts.


Skipping the rest as I largely agree.







I know people where that sort of thing has happened or been implied and also seen lots of debates in the media by GPs themselves and others discussing it.
But as someone else said to me once "considering the amount of tax smokers pay, we should get first class treatment and private beds"

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 4:28PM #58
rangerken
Posts: 15,886
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Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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