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Switch to Forum Live View How to Save 45,000 Lives a Year
4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2010 - 5:38PM #21
solfeggio
Posts: 9,243

Yeah, sure, sooner or later we're all gonna die.  Generally speaking, though, unless we're born with some sort of major bodily defect that is going to severely limit your lifespan, we do have a fair amount of latitude as to how many years we'll be around.


For myself, I'd like to spend as many years as possible with my husband, who is my main reason for being, I guess you'd say.  As he feels the same about me, we long ago decided that we'd do what we could to stay healthy.


And then there's the fact that a lot of us simply enjoy each day as it comes, watching the thrushes in the trees, seeing the cats lazing in the sun, or just walking down the street and experiencing the day.


There is also the fact that, if at all possible, most of us would prefer to die quietly and painlessly, rather than have a protracted and agonising death from cancer or some other nasty disease. 


So, if some scientist tells me in a study that avoiding the sausages and steaks will lower my chances of contracting the nasty disease, I'll go for it.  The dubious 'pleasure' of a steak or pork chop isn't worth the possibility of a painful departure.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2010 - 7:28PM #22
Guessses
Posts: 2,233

Welcome to my life, lol. I've gone from the guy that could do nearly anything to nothing. I once partied until 2am, dropped off my buddy, his wife and mom, drove straight from Houston to Dallas, got there by 7am, and ran a marathon until 2pm. That was only 10 years ago. in 2005 I completed the Seoul marathon in 7 hours with a knee I had twisted out 2 weeks earlier on the ski slopes and later that same year did the Pikes Peak marathon, 6,295ft to 14,110 and back down.


 


My life now, the alphabet soup. The listing ADD,HIV,BP (blood pressure), Depression,ED (erectile dysfunction), IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), Alcoholic(supposedly), Heat Casualty, and unconfirmed TBI (traumatic brain injury) and possibly PTSD.  


 


But, other than that, I "look healthy". So, I hope this helps explain some of my attitude. I do apologize, I have been quite "dark" in my correspondence. 


Peace,


Mike


 

Infinite Blessings
Mike/NAFOD
"Lord, please, protect me from Your followers!"
"WWBD? Buddha- Does it matter? If you are enlightened it does not. If you are not enlightened it still doesn't matter."
"If you go looking to place blame, eventually you'll wind up blaming the Gods"
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2010 - 7:32PM #23
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Oct 26, 2010 -- 5:38PM, solfeggio wrote:


Yeah, sure, sooner or later we're all gonna die.  Generally speaking, though, unless we're born with some sort of major bodily defect that is going to severely limit your lifespan, we do have a fair amount of latitude as to how many years we'll be around.


For myself, I'd like to spend as many years as possible with my husband, who is my main reason for being, I guess you'd say.  As he feels the same about me, we long ago decided that we'd do what we could to stay healthy.


And then there's the fact that a lot of us simply enjoy each day as it comes, watching the thrushes in the trees, seeing the cats lazing in the sun, or just walking down the street and experiencing the day.


There is also the fact that, if at all possible, most of us would prefer to die quietly and painlessly, rather than have a protracted and agonising death from cancer or some other nasty disease. 


So, if some scientist tells me in a study that avoiding the sausages and steaks will lower my chances of contracting the nasty disease, I'll go for it.  The dubious 'pleasure' of a steak or pork chop isn't worth the possibility of a painful departure.




 


Of course you would say that.  You've already made the ethical choice to refrain from meat. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2010 - 10:37PM #24
solfeggio
Posts: 9,243

allthegood -


No, actually, we stopped eating meat for health reasons.  The ethical stuff came much later.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 12:17PM #25
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

This feels familiar, haven't we done this before? 


 


If you completely gave up animal products for health reasons, you either read something, interpreted it yourself, and your physician later said "if it works for you, keep it up", or have a quack for a physician speaking on an ethical stance exceeding his authority and expertise. 


 


I don't expect you to agree.  You have an agenda.  I have a hamburger.  You keep saying the same thing, I keep getting more hamburgers. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 12:18PM #26
Guessses
Posts: 2,233

Oct 27, 2010 -- 12:17PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


This feels familiar, haven't we done this before? 


 


If you completely gave up animal products for health reasons, you either read something, interpreted it yourself, and your physician later said "if it works for you, keep it up", or have a quack for a physician speaking on an ethical stance exceeding his authority and expertise. 


 


I don't expect you to agree.  You have an agenda.  I have a hamburger.  You keep saying the same thing, I keep getting more hamburgers. 


 


all




LOL +1

Infinite Blessings
Mike/NAFOD
"Lord, please, protect me from Your followers!"
"WWBD? Buddha- Does it matter? If you are enlightened it does not. If you are not enlightened it still doesn't matter."
"If you go looking to place blame, eventually you'll wind up blaming the Gods"
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 4:14PM #27
solfeggio
Posts: 9,243

Oh, for cryin' out loud!  You don't have to be a health nut to know that there must have been literally thousands of books and articles published over the years plainly showing the relationship between the eating of saturated fat and various diseases. 


Jeeze, allthegood, you of all people should know that.


Years ago, my husband and I were meat eaters.  As we got older, we started to worry about our health more and give more serious consideration to all those articles and books that said saturated fat just wasn't a good thing for humans to put into their bodies.


Like anybody with a grain of common sense, we took the hint.  We stopped eating the stuff.


It doesn't take a genius to see that there really are some foods that just aren't healthy, no matter how much you like the taste, or the fact that 'everybody' eats those foods.


It's not rocket science.


People often go vegetarian for health reasons.  But when you start reading about how the animals are treated, you might take the next step and go vegan.


Big bloody fu*king deal.


But, never mind what the studies say about the connection between saturated fat and hypertension, or the fact that people who live in countries in which less red meat is consumed have lower rates of heart disease and cancer - you just go right on eating your hamburgers and disparaging the poor crumby vegetarians/vegans who don't have any fun at all. 


And no, I'm not talking about information obtained via the Internet.  I'm talking about real live books, as well as talks with our GP who is most assuredly not a quack.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 4:33PM #28
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

I like easy access to protein and iron, especially since I'm a blood donor. My hematologist agrees with me. I don't fault anyone for being a vegan and I wish no one would fault me for being an omnivore. I don't control evolution. 

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 5:00PM #29
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


Oh, for cryin' out loud!  You don't have to be a health nut to know that there must have been literally thousands of books and articles published over the years plainly showing the relationship between the eating of saturated fat and various diseases. 


Jeeze, allthegood, you of all people should know that.



 


I do know that there is a relationship between the typical western diet and various diseases, and a link can be demonstrated between cutting back to lean red meat 3 or 4 times a week, as your article says, but there is no evidence to suggest that cutting meat out entirely is any better than cutting down to 3 or 4 times a week, and to say otherwise is misinterpreting the data.  That you keep doing it only reinforces my view that you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts based on your ethical principle.  Got it? 


 


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


Years ago, my husband and I were meat eaters.  As we got older, we started to worry about our health more and give more serious consideration to all those articles and books that said saturated fat just wasn't a good thing for humans to put into their bodies.



 


Except those books don't say to completely cut out meat.  Completely cutting out meat is an ethical choice.


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


It doesn't take a genius to see that there really are some foods that just aren't healthy, no matter how much you like the taste, or the fact that 'everybody' eats those foods.



 


Some people like Twinkies.  I liked them as a kid, but in college I was too broke to afford them, so I stopped eating them for a couple years.  Now I can't stand them.


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


People often go vegetarian for health reasons.



And now you are referring to the people that have ignored the advice and common sense and not paid any attention to their eating habits.  Then, after a bypass, their physician tells them that they have to go vegetarian, because obviously they are not capable of eating in moderation.  If you mean them, yes, occasionally persons are told to go vegetarian for health reasons.  Healthy athletic 30 somethings who eat in moderation aren't told to go vegetarian for health reasons though. 


 


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


But when you start reading about how the animals are treated, you might take the next step and go vegan.



 


Yep, for ethical reasons.  I agree with ya there.  In fact, I support your right to make ethical choices based on whatever you want to.


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


But, never mind what the studies say about the connection between saturated fat and hypertension,



I do mind them.  I mind them a lot.  I read what they say though, instead of using them as a tool to justify my preconceived notions. 


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


or the fact that people who live in countries in which less red meat is consumed have lower rates of heart disease and cancer



 


Yes, the typical western diet as compared to places that eat less red meat have lower incidences of heart disease and cancer.  I've never said otherwise.  It is not those that eat less red meat as compared to those who eat no red meat though.  That is the connection you are trying to make here. 


 


 


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


- you just go right on eating your hamburgers and disparaging the poor crumby vegetarians/vegans who don't have any fun at all.



 


Oh, I'm sure you have lots of fun.  Even if we just look at ways that one could have fun eating food, there are many cakes and cookies that don't have animal products in them, my wife makes one with apple sauce replacing oils, man is it good, not to mention the many meat substitutes out there. 


 


Hm, that's kind of interesting though.  Meat substitute.  If people stopped wanting meat after a while, and didn't need it on some basic, fundamental level, why is there a market for substitutes for it?  Something I've often wondered.....


 


Oct 27, 2010 -- 4:14PM, solfeggio wrote:


And no, I'm not talking about information obtained via the Internet.  I'm talking about real live books, as well as talks with our GP who is most assuredly not a quack.




 


Western diet v reduced meat diet?  Yes. 


 


Western diet v no meat diet?  Maybe. Especially if the person has demonstrated a potential to develop health risks while eating a typical western diet. 


 


Reduced meat diet v no meat diet?  Hell no. 


 


all

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 5:09PM #30
solfeggio
Posts: 9,243

It has nothing to do with evolution.  If you go strictly by evolution, you'd realise that we all evolved from frugivorous apes.   That's where our desire for alcoholic beverages comes from.  The apes developed a taste for the rotting fruit in the trees where they dwelt.


icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/4/304....


Where iron is concerned, something like 60% of the iron in animal flesh and all the iron in plants is non-heme iron, which is less well-absorbed than heme iron, which is found in 40% of animal flesh.  Obviously, in a vegan diet there is only non-heme iron.


However, iron-deficiency anemia is no more common in vegans than in populations that eat animal flesh.  This is because vegans eat so many foods high in iron like soybeans, molasses, beans, spinach, tofu, and tempeh.  Also, and even more importantly, vegans eat higher amounts of vitamin C, which increases absorption of non-heme iron.


Then, there is the fact that too much iron in the diet is just as bad as not enough, as the body has no mechanism for disposing of excess iron.  Too much iron is toxic.  In fact, people who absorb too much iron have a higher incidence of cardiovascular disease and cancer.


www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/2000102...


Non-heme iron is more beneficial because its absorption is regulated. 


 

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