Aug 23, 2011 -- 6:29PM, solfeggio wrote:

Dot -

Whilst I go along with much of what Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and others have to say against traditional religious teachings, I have to part company with them at one point, which is that, unlike most atheists, I do believe in the paranormal. 

That is, I really do think that near-death experiences are valid, that genuine mediums exist, there is such a thing as telepathy, and that synchonicity is in some way meaningful, even if we don't understand how.  As well, I go along with Jung's concept of the archetype.

This has nothing to do with the concept of a personal god - or gods - which I do not believe exists, but rather with a feeling that there is more to the universe than we could possibly understand.  I always think that it is analogous to the relationship between humans and ants. 

If a human, walking along, happens to step on an anthill, the scurrying ants cannot possibly know whether the human has done this on purpose or if it was just happenstance.  If the ants were thinking beings with established ant religions, they might assume that what had happened to them was the result of their god's displeasure.  Therefore, they would pray to their ant god and offer sacrifices to appease him/her.

Assuming that nobody else comes along to step on their rebuilt anthill, the religious ants would assume that their prayers and sacrifices had worked, and they would continue in this practise, hoping to avoid further catastrophe.

Of course, sooner or later, somebody is going to come along and crush the anthill again, so the religious ants would have to figure out some new way of paclifying the deity.

To me, this is exactly how religion works, and why it is so badly flawed.  We humans are the ants in the universe.  We know nothing. 

 

 

 

I find the whole idea of atheists who believe in paranormal fascinating and I think you and a few other posters tried to explain it to me, but to be honest I could not get it.  To me I would call you agnostic but people insist that they can call themselves atheists with such views. 

I think our dear departed Agnostic Spirit was like that, self-described atheist but she felt there was more out there to the world.

For the record, I do believe in Near Death experiences, Ghosts and God.  I just can't really explain what God is or how he opperates with much confidence. 

I think you would enjoy a book I read a few years ago called Spook by a woman named Roach.

She is a scientific journalist and almost says she is an atheist but falls short of that.  She explores all of the after death issues like NDE (near death experiences), reincarnation, ghosts, etc.  She looks and analyzes all the studies done on these things.

Aug 23, 2011 -- 6:47PM, Erey wrote:

Aug 23, 2011 -- 6:29PM, solfeggio wrote:

Dot -

Whilst I go along with much of what Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and others have to say against traditional religious teachings, I have to part company with them at one point, which is that, unlike most atheists, I do believe in the paranormal. 

That is, I really do think that near-death experiences are valid, that genuine mediums exist, there is such a thing as telepathy, and that synchonicity is in some way meaningful, even if we don't understand how.  As well, I go along with Jung's concept of the archetype.

This has nothing to do with the concept of a personal god - or gods - which I do not believe exists, but rather with a feeling that there is more to the universe than we could possibly understand.  I always think that it is analogous to the relationship between humans and ants. 

If a human, walking along, happens to step on an anthill, the scurrying ants cannot possibly know whether the human has done this on purpose or if it was just happenstance.  If the ants were thinking beings with established ant religions, they might assume that what had happened to them was the result of their god's displeasure.  Therefore, they would pray to their ant god and offer sacrifices to appease him/her.

Assuming that nobody else comes along to step on their rebuilt anthill, the religious ants would assume that their prayers and sacrifices had worked, and they would continue in this practise, hoping to avoid further catastrophe.

Of course, sooner or later, somebody is going to come along and crush the anthill again, so the religious ants would have to figure out some new way of paclifying the deity.

To me, this is exactly how religion works, and why it is so badly flawed.  We humans are the ants in the universe.  We know nothing. 

I find the whole idea of atheists who believe in paranormal fascinating and I think you and a few other posters tried to explain it to me, but to be honest I could not get it.  To me I would call you agnostic but people insist that they can call themselves atheists with such views.

Technically, I'm an atheist who believes in that "woo-woo" stuff myself. I don't believe in the "Big Parent God" with superpowers envisioned by so many religions. I think, instead, that what all of creation arose from was some vast generative energy field--maybe the Big Bang having been a monumental explosion of that field, perhaps something like pressure building in a volcano until it erupts.

I further think, as Solf suggested, that it's quite likely what we call spirit manifestations, ghosts and the like are simply natural phenomena which we can't as yet explain.

Eventually, it began to seem reasonable to me that ghosts actually are an energy remnant of a dead person that has gotten stuck somehow in a place where that person had been in life. Most of the dead go somewhere else to another form of existence, but some get caught for an unknown reason on our physical plane. (And yes, I too believe that mediums actually may be communicating with the dead. If you have a chance to see the documentary, No One Dies in Lily Dale, it shows some mediums working. Very interesting, Lily Dale being a primary Spiritualist center where mediums must be thoroughly tested and certified to assure they're not frauds.)

Seems to me possible that there are beings which are all energy and have never existed in physical bodies. These beings occasionally make their presence known to us and have become characterized by us as deities, angels, demons, etc. which relate to us in various ways often similar to how people relate to each other. In that sense, Jesus existed. However, so much human storymaking has added mythical details such as virgin birth to Jesus that it's impossible to discern what the spirit which we call Jesus may actually be like--not that we likely have the perception and intelligence to understand its nature anyway.

Thus, I think it possible that people who report being lifted from the path of a speeding vehicle and deposited somewhere out of harm's way did in fact have the aid of an "angel."

Possession by demons may be possible as well, although I'm less comfortable with this, wondering if it isn't mostly mental illness which unleashes aspects of the person's unconscious mind which seem like a completely different personality. Not sure.

So, yeah, I suppose you'd say I'm an atheist who believes in freako stuff myself.

Aug 24, 2011 -- 7:21AM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Aug 23, 2011 -- 6:47PM, Erey wrote:

Aug 23, 2011 -- 6:29PM, solfeggio wrote:

Dot -

Whilst I go along with much of what Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and others have to say against traditional religious teachings, I have to part company with them at one point, which is that, unlike most atheists, I do believe in the paranormal. 

That is, I really do think that near-death experiences are valid, that genuine mediums exist, there is such a thing as telepathy, and that synchonicity is in some way meaningful, even if we don't understand how.  As well, I go along with Jung's concept of the archetype.

This has nothing to do with the concept of a personal god - or gods - which I do not believe exists, but rather with a feeling that there is more to the universe than we could possibly understand.  I always think that it is analogous to the relationship between humans and ants. 

If a human, walking along, happens to step on an anthill, the scurrying ants cannot possibly know whether the human has done this on purpose or if it was just happenstance.  If the ants were thinking beings with established ant religions, they might assume that what had happened to them was the result of their god's displeasure.  Therefore, they would pray to their ant god and offer sacrifices to appease him/her.

Assuming that nobody else comes along to step on their rebuilt anthill, the religious ants would assume that their prayers and sacrifices had worked, and they would continue in this practise, hoping to avoid further catastrophe.

Of course, sooner or later, somebody is going to come along and crush the anthill again, so the religious ants would have to figure out some new way of paclifying the deity.

To me, this is exactly how religion works, and why it is so badly flawed.  We humans are the ants in the universe.  We know nothing. 

I find the whole idea of atheists who believe in paranormal fascinating and I think you and a few other posters tried to explain it to me, but to be honest I could not get it.  To me I would call you agnostic but people insist that they can call themselves atheists with such views.

Technically, I'm an atheist who believes in that "woo-woo" stuff myself. I don't believe in the "Big Parent God" with superpowers envisioned by so many religions. I think, instead, that what all of creation arose from was some vast generative energy field--maybe the Big Bang having been a monumental explosion of that field, perhaps something like pressure building in a volcano until it erupts.

I further think, as Solf suggested, that it's quite likely what we call spirit manifestations, ghosts and the like are simply natural phenomena which we can't as yet explain.

Eventually, it began to seem reasonable to me that ghosts actually are an energy remnant of a dead person that has gotten stuck somehow in a place where that person had been in life. Most of the dead go somewhere else to another form of existence, but some get caught for an unknown reason on our physical plane. (And yes, I too believe that mediums actually may be communicating with the dead. If you have a chance to see the documentary, No One Dies in Lily Dale, it shows some mediums working. Very interesting, Lily Dale being a primary Spiritualist center where mediums must be thoroughly tested and certified to assure they're not frauds.)

Seems to me possible that there are beings which are all energy and have never existed in physical bodies. These beings occasionally make their presence known to us and have become characterized by us as deities, angels, demons, etc. which relate to us in various ways often similar to how people relate to each other. In that sense, Jesus existed. However, so much human storymaking has added mythical details such as virgin birth to Jesus that it's impossible to discern what the spirit which we call Jesus may actually be like--not that we likely have the perception and intelligence to understand its nature anyway.

Thus, I think it possible that people who report being lifted from the path of a speeding vehicle and deposited somewhere out of harm's way did in fact have the aid of an "angel."

Possession by demons may be possible as well, although I'm less comfortable with this, wondering if it isn't mostly mental illness which unleashes aspects of the person's unconscious mind which seem like a completely different personality. Not sure.

So, yeah, I suppose you'd say I'm an atheist who believes in freako stuff myself.

 

Well I have to think you would enjoy Spook by ____ Roach which was something of a best-seller a few years ago.

Also, way cool IMO was a I book I read maybe 5 years ago called Ghost Hunters by Deborah Blum.  Blum is also a scientific journalist .  She describes in her book exploration of mediums by top drawer Royal Academy of Sciences  - Scientists.  Which is fascinating as it covers what was maybe a 30  year time frame of this exploration by these  true scientific giants.  Then as they aged they started to die and they started to make pacts with one another on how they would try and communicate beyond the grave.

Some of the Scientists were:

Charles Wallace (Co-authored with Darwin the Origen of Design)

William James and lots of others including scientists that discovered a element on the periodic table, etc. 

They discovered alot of fraud but at the same time enough truth to keep them interested.  It is amazing how hostile the scientific community was to them, and the religious community too.

On and on and on with this never-ending thread.

Not all of us care about other perceptions of god/no god or the extra sensory. I think the extra sensory exists, but I don't need a lot of outre input about it.

If I want to do theology/philosophy I go to the Discuss Catholicism board where there are many who have actually studied in depth. Kooks there, too; I just avoid them.

This board is devolving into Kool-Aid Land. Interpret at will.....................

Most with any sense can determine a healthful regimen if they choose.

Online schmoozing can get old, y'all. Pat my back and I'll pat yours........it's 7th grade stuff. In the end real leaders emerge as they often did in grade school forward.

Smile, engage.......yada, yada.

Jane says--

"Online schmooz can get old. Yada yada."

Uh--this is a venue for people to talk to each other.

What did you think it was for?