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Switch to Forum Live View another aspect to vegetarianism...
3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 11:04AM #21
Abner1
Posts: 6,457

The problem with a flawed or offensive argument in favor of something is that it makes that thing seem less plausible, not more.  That may not be fair ...  just because an argument is flawed doesn't really make the conclusion less likely to be true ... but it's the way people's minds work.  Same with "you catch more flies with honey" - it's a truism for good reason.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 11:11AM #22
Erey
Posts: 19,423

Jun 30, 2011 -- 9:09AM, Abner1 wrote:


 


I think the best definition of fanaticism is when ideology starts becoming more important than people ... or perhaps when hypothetical people become more important than actual ones.  Ah well, I doubt Solfeggio and I will ever succeed in convincing the other of anything, but bridging the divide is worth trying once in a while.




For me that is it, live your life to your ideals.  You can even evangalize a bit about your lifestyle, why not if you are convinced your way is superior and will create an improvement for others.  At the end of the day you have to care more about people than the ideology.


I appreciate passion and I can understand passion sometimes leads to missteps or wrong decisions.  But if you  truly think the human race is evil and you can't put people first then you are a misanthrope - I can't respect misanthropy. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 11:49AM #23
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833
Heartily agreed, Erey!
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 12:32PM #24
rabello
Posts: 22,235

I think something else besides anti-vegetarianism vs pro-vegetarianism is going on, here, and on every pro-vegetarianism thread solfeggio starts.  So she has made people mad....ok.....whatever.    The one thing she DOES do is provide references to scientific studies and current news reports to back up what she says, references that it seems her opponents don't read and don't address.   Nonetheless, it shouldn't be a surprise that someone who finds killing and eating animals to be an immoral act would NOT say "I'm ok/you're ok" when faced with those who are dismissive of that philosophy.   I recognize the ongoing fight over pro and anti, here, has become personalized, but is anybody's life going to be changed because a committed vegan name solfeggio on an impersonal website has a stance in life that is inconsistent with "do your own thing"?   The word "activism" has a definition for a reason, and being an "activist" doens't make one a "fanatic."

Black Lives Matter
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 1:54PM #25
Erey
Posts: 19,423

I think we do need to be tolerant of passions and activism.  However I think what makes people unhappy is the feel that judgement is being levied against them.  That the only thing they are making decisions with is their lower level taste buds.  This is not flattering, and in fact might be considered insulting.


I think we should be tolerant of vegan activists, and pro-life activists and nonsmoking activists and even evangelicals or other religious activists.  After all these people believe they are advocating a better way of life, or at least preventing an evil.  However just as when a evangelical says your way of thinking about God is sending you to hell, nobody really wants to hear that they are just heartless gluttons only eating meat for the primal satisfaction and don't care about animals.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 2:54PM #26
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jun 30, 2011 -- 12:32PM, rabello wrote:


I think something else besides anti-vegetarianism vs pro-vegetarianism is going on, here, and on every pro-vegetarianism thread solfeggio starts.  So she has made people mad....ok.....whatever.    The one thing she DOES do is provide references to scientific studies and current news reports to back up what she says, references that it seems her opponents don't read and don't address.   Nonetheless, it shouldn't be a surprise that someone who finds killing and eating animals to be an immoral act would NOT say "I'm ok/you're ok" when faced with those who are dismissive of that philosophy.   I recognize the ongoing fight over pro and anti, here, has become personalized, but is anybody's life going to be changed because a committed vegan name solfeggio on an impersonal website has a stance in life that is inconsistent with "do your own thing"?   The word "activism" has a definition for a reason, and being an "activist" doens't make one a "fanatic."





Good post.  All this nonsense that Solfeggio is a fanatic or trying to proselytize, or impose her views  seem to be a defensive position some people take who feel threatened by what she says.


She obviously touches a lot of nerves, otherwise it would be easy to just ignore what she says. Those who are trying to find their ways about the issue can find value in other people's  experiences. The ones who don't want to be bothered, find fault with  the messenger instead.
,

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 3:06PM #27
Abner1
Posts: 6,457

Arielg wrote:


> She obviously touches a lot of nerves, otherwise it would be easy to just ignore what


> she says.


She definitely does - but touching a lot of nerves doesn't mean you're right, it just means you're being offensive.  For example, if you go around telling every Japanese person you can find that Japan deserved getting hit with the earthquake and tsunami because it was God punishing the Japanese for not being Christians, you'll probably touch a lot of nerves too.  It probably won't incline those Japanese people to think "Oh, you're right, I should immediately switch to Christianity so my home country doesn't get hit with more earthquakes and tsunamis" ...


Even a sound conclusion can be damaged by using unsound or offensive arguments.  But if she wants to use an approach that damages her own cause, that's her right ... just as it is my right to point out that the approach is flawed in one or more ways.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 3:43PM #28
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,701

Jun 30, 2011 -- 2:54PM, arielg wrote:


Jun 30, 2011 -- 12:32PM, rabello wrote:


I think something else besides anti-vegetarianism vs pro-vegetarianism is going on, here, and on every pro-vegetarianism thread solfeggio starts.  So she has made people mad....ok.....whatever.    The one thing she DOES do is provide references to scientific studies and current news reports to back up what she says, references that it seems her opponents don't read and don't address.   Nonetheless, it shouldn't be a surprise that someone who finds killing and eating animals to be an immoral act would NOT say "I'm ok/you're ok" when faced with those who are dismissive of that philosophy.   I recognize the ongoing fight over pro and anti, here, has become personalized, but is anybody's life going to be changed because a committed vegan name solfeggio on an impersonal website has a stance in life that is inconsistent with "do your own thing"?   The word "activism" has a definition for a reason, and being an "activist" doens't make one a "fanatic."





Good post.  All this nonsense that Solfeggio is a fanatic or trying to proselytize, or impose her views  seem to be a defensive position some people take who feel threatened by what she says.


She obviously touches a lot of nerves, otherwise it would be easy to just ignore what she says. Those who are trying to find their ways about the issue can find value in other people's  experiences. The ones who don't want to be bothered, find fault with  the messenger instead.
,





As with all things, how one says thing matters. IMO, some of Solf's nasty statements about those of us who eat meat are the same as some of the nasty statements some pro-lifers make outside abortion clinics. Yes, they're both passionate and yes, when one hates killing of another being (whether animal or human) so vehemently, it's easy to be offensive when trying to "convince" others that they're wrong and you're right. However, sometimes if an activist changes how they say something, they'll get more people to listen.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 6:29PM #29
solfeggio
Posts: 9,558

rabello and arielg -


Thank you for your posts which I think hit on the heart of what's going on here. 


My stance is a simple one:  I have always believed that causing pain and suffering to innocent creatures - both human and nonhuman - who have not done you any harm, is morally wrong.


Yes, I have deep empathy for all living creatures, and I have always deplored the way humans treat our fellow animals.  Because I feel their pain.  When I see somebody in the mall food court eating a steak dinner, all I can think of is how the cow must have felt, being dragged into the slaughterhouse, slipping on the blood of those that had gone before her, hearing their terrified calls as they are hoisted up and having their throats cut, knowing that, in a few minutes she, too, will suffer that fate.


It literally makes me nauseous.  And the same goes for people eating bacon, or reading here in these posts of people talking about how they 'love' their pork chops or bacon.  My only thought is of the mother pig, kept in close confinement with her piglets for a few months, never seeing the outdoors or knowing what it would be like to live a natural life.  Then, having her babies taken away from her before she could raise them.  And, finally, with other pigs forced into a truck and hauled off to the slaughterhouse to experience the same terrors as the cows.


When I see these posts about how people just have to have their meat, or they love it, or whatever, I become so angry that I can hardly think. 


Nobody can ever deny that the factory farm system is cruel and inhumane.  And nobody can ever deny that animals like pigs, chickens, calves, cows, and other animals are cruelly exploited and forced to endure torturous conditions that no kind person would ever allow his/her adored pets to endure.


www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-an...


www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-aninsi...


www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-foo...


video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-513747...#


www.meat.org/


www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/slaughter...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlhSQ5z4V4


yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/exposed-long...


And yeah, you know what?  If being empathetic makes me the aberrant one or the deviate, then I'm glad.  And I'm really sorry that the rest of the human race went the other way, into being the spoilt, selfish, self-centred beings that evidently most of us are.  Because if everybody could truly experience the pain and suffering of not just our fellow animals, but our fellow humans as well, maybe this poor, tired old world wouldn't be so friggin' fu*ked up.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 6:41PM #30
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

Jun 30, 2011 -- 6:29PM, solfeggio wrote:


rabello and arielg -


Thank you for your posts which I think hit on the heart of what's going on here. 


My stance is a simple one:  I have always believed that causing pain and suffering to innocent creatures - both human and nonhuman - who have not done you any harm, is morally wrong.


Yes, I have deep empathy for all living creatures, and I have always deplored the way humans treat our fellow animals.  Because I feel their pain.  When I see somebody in the mall food court eating a steak dinner, all I can think of is how the cow must have felt, being dragged into the slaughterhouse, slipping on the blood of those that had gone before her, hearing their terrified calls as they are hoisted up and having their throats cut, knowing that, in a few minutes she, too, will suffer that fate.


It literally makes me nauseous.  And the same goes for people eating bacon, or reading here in these posts of people talking about how they 'love' their pork chops or bacon.  My only thought is of the mother pig, kept in close confinement with her piglets for a few months, never seeing the outdoors or knowing what it would be like to live a natural life.  Then, having her babies taken away from her before she could raise them.  And, finally, with other pigs forced into a truck and hauled off to the slaughterhouse to experience the same terrors as the cows.


When I see these posts about how people just have to have their meat, or they love it, or whatever, I become so angry that I can hardly think. 


Nobody can ever deny that the factory farm system is cruel and inhumane.  And nobody can ever deny that animals like pigs, chickens, calves, cows, and other animals are cruelly exploited and forced to endure torturous conditions that no kind person would ever allow his/her adored pets to endure.


www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-an...


www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-aninsi...


www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-foo...


video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-513747...#


www.meat.org/


www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/slaughter...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlhSQ5z4V4


yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/exposed-long...


And yeah, you know what?  If being empathetic makes me the aberrant one or the deviate, then I'm glad.  And I'm really sorry that the rest of the human race went the other way, into being the spoilt, selfish, self-centred beings that evidently most of us are.  Because if everybody could truly experience the pain and suffering of not just our fellow animals, but our fellow humans as well, maybe this poor, tired old world wouldn't be so friggin' fu*ked up.


 




Solf, you described my feelings exactly.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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