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Switch to Forum Live View another aspect to vegetarianism...
3 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2011 - 11:48PM #41
Erey
Posts: 18,419

Jun 30, 2011 -- 10:58PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Empathy is one thing. Projection of human attributes, and importance, is another.


I have enough empathy for animals to know they don't care a sh*t about human projections. For them, eating, or being killed and eaten by something else, is just mere fact.





Pretty much, although I do think a few animals like dogs and dolphins seem to care about human projections.  With my own observations I feel dogs do, I don't have alot of personal experience with dolphins and I am basing my thoughts on people that do. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 12:02AM #42
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

Costrel -


I know where you're coming from in your post, and you bring up many of the same issues I have thought about over the years.  Perhaps where we differ is in how we look at how human cultural behaviour systems can or should be changed. 


I tend to be a pessimist where that is concerned.  For myself, the glass is always half empty.


It would be a blessing if people in overpopulated countries really did some serious thinking about birth control, or if the powers that be in the industrialised West decided to stop the spread of urbanisation.  But, humans being what they are, I just don't think that's ever going to happen.


To put it more prosaically, we on this planet been taken to the cleaners and we don't even know that our pants are off. And, as long as we can have our little pleasures and instant gratifications, we're OK with that


We can talk for hours about how much humans are responsible for the cruelties of factory farming, or animal cruelty in all its forms, but if humans are entrenched in their ancient (probably religious) convictions about why nonhuman animals occupy this planet, and how to treat them, I just can't see where that can be changed.


Over the years, I've aired my views about animal cruelty over and over and over in different forums, and I've always met with the same resistance from people who are loathe to give up their ingrained eating habits - no matter what.  And I've long since realised that only those who already understand where I'm coming from wil 'get' the message.


But, as long as this is an open forum in which people can air their views, I'll keep on posting when the opportunity presents itself. 


 


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 10:34AM #43
piecesofthewhole
Posts: 1,380

Jun 30, 2011 -- 9:04PM, DotNotInOz wrote:

Myself, since my digestion can't tolerate a vegetarian diet, I buy organic, free-range meats and wild-caught seafood as often as possible. When I eat meat, poultry or seafood, I follow the Native American custom of expressing gratitude to the animal that gave its life for my nourishment.




 


I think this is really nice.  I've been trying to be more mindful about everything really and taking a moment to reflect on where your food came from and to give thanks for it is a really beautiful idea.  thank you for that.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 12:22PM #44
Erey
Posts: 18,419

Jul 1, 2011 -- 12:02AM, solfeggio wrote:


Costrel -


I know where you're coming from in your post, and you bring up many of the same issues I have thought about over the years.  Perhaps where we differ is in how we look at how human cultural behaviour systems can or should be changed. 


I tend to be a pessimist where that is concerned.  For myself, the glass is always half empty.


It would be a blessing if people in overpopulated countries really did some serious thinking about birth control, or if the powers that be in the industrialised West decided to stop the spread of urbanisation.  But, humans being what they are, I just don't think that's ever going to happen.


 


 





How can you say this when the birth rate has been going down, down and down?  How????  Go back just 50 years and the birthrate was double. 


Honestly I think your misanthropy is just a  knee jerk reaction vs. any real thinking.


And as far as my appetite, I like many other posters am a bit more than our appetites.  And we according to OUR RESEARCH believe that a diet that includes a moderate amount of meat is more healthfull than vegetarianism.  We really believe this based on our research.  however it seems at least most of us can respect that you disagree. 


Your prattling on about us being a slave to our heartless attitudes is sort of the equivalenet that claiming you are pushing veganism out of your sour misanthropy vs. any real concern for animals. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 3:46PM #45
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jun 30, 2011 -- 10:58PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Empathy is one thing. Projection of human attributes, and importance, is another.


I have enough empathy for animals to know they don't care a sh*t about human projections. For them, eating, or being killed and eaten by something else, is just mere fact.




So, what are you saying? Are you taking your clues from animals?

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 8:22PM #46
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Coming late to this thread, it looks like it started with an item about someone who had been vegetarian and then went (or went back) to eating meat.


So? People are at different places at different times in their lives. Vegetarianism, like anything else we do or refrain from doing, is not a place to have arrived at but a path to follow. Sometimes we stumble from the path we are on or simply decide to take a different path. What is surprising about that?


As for the usual bickering over vegetarianism, I'll say what I usually say -- straight facts:


1. It is a healthier diet than a meat-based diet. A small amount of meat will not cause harm, just as smoking a few cigarettes a day will not cause harm. That does not mean that eating a little meat and smoking a few cigarettes are beneficial to health. It just means that within the limits of our current ability to measure physiologic harm, a small amount of meat and a few cigarettes are not known to be harmful. This applies to populations, not individuals; obviously certain individuals can be harmed even by slight exposure to harmful substances, but for whole populations we can say that meat and cigarettes are not healthy at all, but that limited exposure to them has not been clearly linked to illness.


2. Large-scale breeding of animals to be slaughtered for meat is environmentally damaging and wasteful of resources.


3. It does not matter one iota what gorillas eat, what kind of teeth we have, what the Bible says, or what is "natural" (even if we could agree on a definition of naturalness). The dietary choices we make are based on many factors, but those four -- perennial favorites in the Veggie Wars -- are totally irrelevant. People eat what they eat based on how they were raised as children, what they find tasty, what they find practical and affordable, how they relate emotionally to food, and what they understand intellectually about food production and nutrition. The only thing we can discuss is the last item.


4. Non-crusaders find crusaders annoying. What else is new? The question for non-crusaders is whether their annoyance at crusaders invalidates what the crusaders are saying.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 8:36PM #47
Ur2
Posts: 4,087

arielg,


Post #35 was stupendoulsly myopic and what you asked in return only shows how far myopia can progress when it comes to the thinking process.


If you can't elaborate just a tad more, then why bother posting at all?


If you refuse to believe that humans, proto-humans, modern simians, cats, dogs, birds, fish, insects and the whatnot of our diverse biological machine on the planet eat meat... other than your marvelously pedestrian offering of witticism, what else do you have?


Thanks for showing just how mundane one can get in a serious discussion.


Do you deny that animals eat people? Do you deny that people eat people... or was your post merely for entertainment's sake and meant as a put-down rather than something of any value towards the OP?


Thanx,


Ur2

Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is.

"Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing the matter with this, except it ain't so."
Samuel Langhorne Clemens
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2011 - 11:07PM #48
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jul 1, 2011 -- 8:36PM, Ur2 wrote:


arielg,


Post #35 was stupendoulsly myopic and what you asked in return only shows how far myopia can progress when it comes to the thinking process.


If you can't elaborate just a tad more, then why bother posting at all?


If you refuse to believe that humans, proto-humans, modern simians, cats, dogs, birds, fish, insects and the whatnot of our diverse biological machine on the planet eat meat... other than your marvelously pedestrian offering of witticism, what else do you have?


Thanks for showing just how mundane one can get in a serious discussion.


Do you deny that animals eat people? Do you deny that people eat people... or was your post merely for entertainment's sake and meant as a put-down rather than something of any value towards the OP?


Thanx,


Ur2





My answer was in the same level as your statement. You said:


"If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat"


 Well, he made us out of meat too. So, by your logic, it must be because he want us to eat people too. Primitives do.  That should give you a hint what direction  civilization goes.


The argument that because they are made out of meat means that we  should eat them is a false argument. He made corn, beans and apples too.  Maybe he meant that we should eat that.  


 Would you eat your dog or cat?  They are made out of meat.  The reason you probably wouldn't is because that is not the main consideration for eating meat or not. We have a consciousness and we decide by our consciousness . And our consciousness includes empathy, love, respect, etc. We decide based on that, not just what animals are made of.




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3 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2011 - 3:30PM #49
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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