I didn't realize Atheism (or Buddhism) was a condition one needed to recover from

I've found this one to be a pretty good guide, even for folks like me who thought "Atheism", "Buddhism", "Alcoholism", and/or "Insert-your-favorite-ism here" made it impossible.

Heck - I don't know that I was thinking so much about the idea of "wanting things my way", although it certainly would apply. I was thinking more of what the steps are (or aren't). The fellowship's (many members of AA) experience already has shown you can be an atheist, use the book to take the steps, and recover. Despite of all of the seeming contradictory language in chapter 4 .  Plenty of people have done it.

From my viewpoint, Atheism, Buddhism,,, all of those things fall under a heading of "outside issue", or as I like to say "not important".  I think Chapter 4/step 2 is more about opening the mind than anything else.

The thing my sponsor kept hitting me with was the idea of letting go of old ideas. Obviously, my viewpoint was influenced by that. Let go because they don't work. So, If I think I'm a Christian, let that go. If I think I'm atheist, let that go. Not a value judgement on those ideas, just a simple matter of "Does it work?". Atheist/Buddhist/whatever-ist doesn't matter, all of us have that experience

Heck, when he introduced me to Step 2, we didn't talk of God at all. The step itself doesn't. "A Power greater than". I really appreciate the AA book, because I'm required to make up my own mind:

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own  conception of God.  This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions  which you find in this book.  Do not let any prejudice you may have  against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what  they mean to you.  At the start, this was all we needed to commence  spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we  understood Him.

I don't believe it is the "HP concept from Christian society" that is the issue here. I think it is the concept of "teaching authority" - we have members who somehow convince themselves (and others) that they have an authority that doesn't exist in the real world. Newer members can often sense something isn't right, but because of things like mis-information, influences from other institution outside of the fellowship, as well as the mental turmoil experienced by a lifetime of drinking and then sobering-up, it can be confusing - perhaps even impossible to sort out.

This would be academic - except that there are people who could be helped, were it not for such stupidity. Stupidity the first members of AA specifically cautioned against.

This thread was started by someone looking for 12 steps for Atheists - with an unspoken assumption that the Big Book couldn't work. While I can totally understand the desire and percieved need for something like that, in my mind that's a damn shame. Why did we lose sight of our primary purpose?

Jun 21, 2010 -- 9:41AM, Zalokar62 wrote:

  I find all this rather funny. I saw a book about the 12 steps and Buddhism and out curiousity I ask if anybody seen such a thing for athesits. Instead of a simple yes/no people get all preachy and judgemental about people wanting it there way. My God people it was just a question! 

And thank you very much for that question ...

A dog grab a bone and runs with it. It doesn't matter if the intent of the original dog was to bury it or devour it, once another dog get a hold of it and it leaves your mouth it’s no longer yours and you don’t know where it may go! So much for discussion/debate ...

The comments are not judgmental in my opinion but personal reflections coming from possible underlying reasons for such a question posed and what others have posed in the past ...

Your original post asked if anyone has seen any books on the 12 steps for atheist so no I haven't. I think I read something at one time about Rational Recovery but it held little interest for me because basically it left the HP concept out and said we needed to pick ourselves up by our own bootstraps and that has never worked for me ...

You say a simple yes/no response was what you were looking for? Now my answer maybe worthless to you but if I simply said yes, I don't see where that would be of any help?

Your question was a jumping off point for further discussion ... That’s all ...

Nothing personal ...

The reason for the need for further discussion is because I believe it ‘can’ lead to the idea that AA is not for all but just for a select few and in my opinion that is not so ...

The solution offered by AA’s 12 steps as outlines in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous works for all. And I’ve talked to a number of Atheist in the past! The feelings I’ve expressed is that AA literature can apply to anyone without consideration of whether they have a traditional understanding of a higher power or God concept ...

Maybe my comments are totally off track to your original purpose but in the possible underlying implications that others could possibly take and what I understood from your question I felt it was worthy of discussions anyways ...

Sorry you took it personally but if I could ask – do you find AA lacking or not suiting your needs ...

Jun 21, 2010 -- 1:57PM, Zalokar62 wrote:

  My needs in AA are met quite fine thanks. I came to AA many moons ago and with the help of God I am doing great. I do believe that we need to be open to the needs of others in AA. At times a newcomer enters a meeting and it ends up sounding more like a bible revival than an AA meeting. For some reason in AA the Christain expression is given a by where as Buddhism, Paganism and Atheism are assigned that all to easy label of an outside issue. I use to sponsor a guy who was pagan. The reason he asked me to sponsor him was because too many of the good old timers would say stuff like "Why don't you give up that fairy dust stuff and get a real God". We as members of the fellowship need to be open to the diversity that exists the world today.

I live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. yet the AA party line hasn't recognized that not everybody prays the Lords Prayer. Not everybody follows the Judeo-Christian tradition. So to stomp all over another's beliefs is certainly not being helpful. The challenge for AA is to balance the living program of the 12 steps yet still meet the needs of other without diminishing them. As it says in step 9 in the big book "Love and tolerance of others is our code." Let's never forget that  David

Thanks for your post David ...

You might want to add the Baha’i perspective on God to the list of Buddhism, Paganism and Atheism; for I am not a Christian. So I can appreciate what you are saying. But Christian or otherwise, all are an outside issue as we know. The trick is to help the members keep their ego’s in check when it comes to belief and HP. I need to realize that what didn't work in the past (religious affiliation probably won't work in the future and should not be used in the rooms of AA.  It is a separate issue!  Hopefully not being too judgmental but if a meeting sounds like a bible revival it is not AA and the floor has to be told to calm it down, imho of course ...

I think that religious beliefs, whether Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Buddhist, Baha’i or having no belief is an outside issue. In my neck of the woods we have little problems with this type of activity. Once in a while it will pop up it ugly head but doesn’t last long. I have no problem with the Lord’s prayer being said at the close of a meeting but every so often if I’m not saying the Lord’s Prayer someone will ask me about it but not necessarily in a judgmental way but just to ask why. Almost like saying: "You’re not saying the LP making you different than me! Why" I suppose that if a newcomer is ask in the same manner (s)he may be a little sensitive and we do need to protect the newcomer for awhile ...

Love and tolerance indeed ...  

All the best ...

PS:  I see your last post is number 12 – do I remember you from awhile ago?