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Switch to Forum Live View Recovered vs Recovering?
5 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2012 - 1:03AM #61
mikeincolorado
Posts: 395

Seefan,


While I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys participating within the various aspects of the fellowship, I have found this world is filled with places and opportunities to practice the great "Give-and-take".


Meetings and the fellowship are a "...beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs".


I'll preach to the choir a bit: Our 12th step requires practice in all our affairs. At some point, it's on me to find a power by which I can live, and get out there and start living. If I can't or won't do that, then I haven't completed the program of recovery!


*Mike climbs off soapbox*


Now, in the interests of fairness there is a huge difference between someone who attends meetings and participates in AA as a part of a well-rounded life, and a phony-baloney fear-monger who talks and acts as if bottles lie behind every corner and it is up to them to remain ever vigilant and virtuous - or else. That is not what our book offers. To make matters worse, they often persist in trying to get everyone else to play along with their non-sense.


*No, really. I'm getting down off the soapbox* Laughing


Must I forever listen to my fears? Am I always required to give more power to the problem than to the solution? Pretending that by doing so I'm being "humble" when I'm really being self-reliant? I say no. A thousand times "No". No more.


Why not trust what I'm being offered? Why not "take up my bed and walk"? Like they asked me at the beginning "What have you got to lose?". The answer, then and now, is "Nothing".


I am given the gift of freedom, and I'm grateful for it.

Mike

*******************************************************
"When I've learned enough to really live, I'll be old enough to die" - Johnny Cash
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2012 - 8:41PM #62
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

Dec 1, 2012 -- 1:03AM, mikeincolorado wrote:


Seefan,


While I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys participating within the various aspects of the fellowship, I have found this world is filled with places and opportunities to practice the great "Give-and-take".


Meetings and the fellowship are a "...beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs".


I'll preach to the choir a bit: Our 12th step requires practice in all our affairs. At some point, it's on me to find a power by which I can live, and get out there and start living. If I can't or won't do that, then I haven't completed the program of recovery!


*Mike climbs off soapbox*


Now, in the interests of fairness there is a huge difference between someone who attends meetings and participates in AA as a part of a well-rounded life, and a phony-baloney fear-monger who talks and acts as if bottles lie behind every corner and it is up to them to remain ever vigilant and virtuous - or else. That is not what our book offers. To make matters worse, they often persist in trying to get everyone else to play along with their non-sense.


*No, really. I'm getting down off the soapbox* Laughing


Must I forever listen to my fears? Am I always required to give more power to the problem than to the solution? Pretending that by doing so I'm being "humble" when I'm really being self-reliant? I say no. A thousand times "No". No more.


Why not trust what I'm being offered? Why not "take up my bed and walk"? Like they asked me at the beginning "What have you got to lose?". The answer, then and now, is "Nothing".


I am given the gift of freedom, and I'm grateful for it.





Thanks for your thoughts Mike!  Not a soapbox but simply reflecting upon your understanding!  And as always I appreciate your perspective ...  Cool


I'll add one more thing to my last post - if I am still going to AA after a certain amount of time  working the 12 steps and still have not recovered and still have difficulty staying sober I'm living in the problem and not in the solution.  The program is not that hard to grasp!  Instead my purpose should be, to be of service to humanity, if I've recovered!  So what is the purpose in still going to AA other than to pass on what I've learned - to be of service to humanity, one drunk at a time!  Is that arrogance?  I hope not ...


Today I live outside of AA and have many interests but I also have many AA friends and continue to go to meetings on a regular bases.  I've set my priorities to include AA, as I owe this program and its membership a lifetime of gratitude ...


 


 

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 10:32AM #63
kenn
Posts: 5
We should not have to defend our book. If you have no experience with being recovered than say that. But for the love of god don't tell newcomers they can't recover just because you don't understand our book. If you want to stay sick one day at a time then Thats your choice. To say we can't recover is to doubt the power of god.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:12PM #64
solarsouls@comcast.net
Posts: 200

Sep 12, 2009 -- 2:27PM, Seefan wrote:

What is the difference between recovered and recovering?  The Big Book uses both terms.  Do both terms somehow mean the same thing?


 


 


  


Blessings to all, Bows, Namaste! I cannot tell you how pleased I am to find life in this place! I was about to conclude nothing had happened on Bnet since I left it several years ago to explore more dynamic places and things on the web! BTW Does anybody ever read these?


 


 


I left Bnet at a time of struggle for Bnet as a whole and for myself as a time of transition in my "programs" or "practice"


 


This thread caught my eye because of the Recovered/Recovering title! It is not something I hear a lot our anymore, but once was a great big deal in my local 12 step community in Southern Colorado.


 


My first sponsor (1984) was a remarkable man,  who had something I desired beyond “simple recovery”, he openly introduced himself by his whole name every time, and without shame and “claimed his recovery”, when he introduced himself in every meeting with the statement “I am recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body”.  He was also sponsored be by a fellow who had done likewise, who had been sponsored by a fellow who had done likewise, that had also been sponsored by a fellow who “claimed his recovery” accordingly, saying “I am Bill Wilson, I am recovered from a dangerous  state of mind and body”.


This comes to me all the way back from Bill Wilson, who was the first to write that "we are more than one hundred, who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body" in the first draft, of the first edition, of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.


That draft went to print exactly as Bill had written those words and is printed today exactly as it was originally.


For me, and only me, (this is my experience, strength, and hope,) it would be useless and counter to everything I have learned and now know (after 28 yrs. in continuous 12 step recovery) from Chemical Dependency for me to  not claim my recovery. It would be to deny the Miraculous Gifts,  that were given to me in August, 1984, when I fell to my knees in a dark and lonely prairie behind our country home, and asked for help from a Divine source I was not sure existed. It took a few days from then to get “in a 30 day inpatient treatment program”, and into 12 step meetings. I have not had to take a drink since that prayer!  I tried to once, when OI realized I had a beer left in the cooler on the night before I was due to report to the Treatment Center, but couldn't The compulsion had been lifted. I could not force the fluid down my throat, I realized much later that I had recovered there and then, and have not had to struggle with the conscious desire

Be the change you want to see in this world

                                            Ghandi
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 3:26PM #65
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:12PM, solarsouls@comcast.net wrote:

Sep 12, 2009 -- 2:27PM, Seefan wrote:


What is the difference between recovered and recovering?  The Big Book uses both terms.  Do both terms somehow mean the same thing?   



Blessings to all, Bows, Namaste! I cannot tell you how pleased I am to find life in this place! I was about to conclude nothing had happened on Bnet since I left it several years ago to explore more dynamic places and things on the web! BTW Does anybody ever read these?


I left Bnet at a time of struggle for Bnet as a whole and for myself as a time of transition in my "programs" or "practice"


This thread caught my eye because of the Recovered/Recovering title! It is not something I hear a lot our anymore, but once was a great big deal in my local 12 step community in Southern Colorado.


My first sponsor (1984) was a remarkable man,  who had something I desired beyond “simple recovery”, he openly introduced himself by his whole name every time, and without shame and “claimed his recovery”, when he introduced himself in every meeting with the statement “I am recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body”.  He was also sponsored be by a fellow who had done likewise, who had been sponsored by a fellow who had done likewise, that had also been sponsored by a fellow who “claimed his recovery” accordingly, saying “I am Bill Wilson, I am recovered from a dangerous  state of mind and body”.


This comes to me all the way back from Bill Wilson, who was the first to write that "we are more than one hundred, who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body" in the first draft, of the first edition, of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.


That draft went to print exactly as Bill had written those words and is printed today exactly as it was originally.


For me, and only me, (this is my experience, strength, and hope,) it would be useless and counter to everything I have learned and now know (after 28 yrs. in continuous 12 step recovery) from Chemical Dependency for me to  not claim my recovery. It would be to deny the Miraculous Gifts,  that were given to me in August, 1984, when I fell to my knees in a dark and lonely prairie behind our country home, and asked for help from a Divine source I was not sure existed. It took a few days from then to get “in a 30 day inpatient treatment program”, and into 12 step meetings. I have not had to take a drink since that prayer!  I tried to once, when OI realized I had a beer left in the cooler on the night before I was due to report to the Treatment Center, but couldn't The compulsion had been lifted. I could not force the fluid down my throat, I realized much later that I had recovered there and then, and have not had to struggle with the conscious desire 



Thanks 'student of many paths' for your insightful story and welcome back to beliefnet.  Hope you find much to interest you in your learning and sharing!  You've seemed to have had an interesting story of recovery.  Also very interesting to hear of the connection back to Bill Wilson and your own experiences.  Thanks so much for sharing!

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 3:29PM #66
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

Jan 10, 2013 -- 10:32AM, kenn wrote:

We should not have to defend our book. If you have no experience with being recovered than say that. But for the love of god don't tell newcomers they can't recover just because you don't understand our book. If you want to stay sick one day at a time then Thats your choice. To say we can't recover is to doubt the power of god.




Welcome to beliefnet!  I agree with your comments!  So, since the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous tells us that we can recover where do you, or anyone else, think all of the confusion comes from?  Or do you think there's confusion?

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 11:51PM #67
Estacia
Posts: 2,236

For me, I believe I will always be recovering with life and everything in it.


God Bless,


 


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5 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 10:01AM #68
Seefan
Posts: 4,017

Jan 13, 2013 -- 11:51PM, Estacia wrote:

  For me, I believe I will always be recovering with life and everything in it.


God Bless,


 






For me, while it maybe semantics, I like to think of it as growing and developing with life.  Recovering makes me think of something negative like recovering from alcoholism and its negative and destructive affects.


Just a thought ...


I like you're pic, do it with love ... Cool 


 


 

In the human world, if we do not understand the divine world, is that a proof that the world of God does not exist?  (Divine Philosophy, p. 117 ... Baha'i Writings)
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 8:08AM #69
mikeincolorado
Posts: 395

Jan 12, 2013 -- 3:29PM, Seefan wrote:


...where do you, or anyone else, think all of the confusion comes from?  Or do you think there's confusion?




I have a few thoughts on that.


  1. Collectively, I think it was borne from a desire to use the AA program as the foundation of a effort to treat addiction, and most importantly monetize that treatment. To get things like underwriting, that requires certain things - data, the ability to track and measure and report progress. All very clever mental gymnastics. Also all human powers rooted in self reliance. Kind of the opposite of what our book offers. So there are many things said in meetings and held to be true that aren't rooted in the big book. They come from another  institution or enterprise. Today we have the tradition of "cooperation rather than affiliation". What isn't quite so clear is that we have that tradition because we had members create things like "AA hospitals" and that enterprise (and others like it) caused harm to AA as a whole. I think that influence is still felt.
  2. Individually, there is also the desire to "hold on to our old ideas..." The program of action is pretty radical Laughing. Humility is fine for others, but when it comes time for me to humble myself, I wasn't so eager. So, one of the forms pride takes is "I'm always recovering". Obviously, the most important word in that statement is "I". The one doing the recovering. "I" am a big deal, don'tcha know? When I really take the plunge, and let go completely, then I have recovered. The most important word then becomes recovered, because I can't do that. Only god-as-we-understand-him can produce such a state of being. This is what our book offers. A way to allow an entire psychic change. But a price has to be paid, and many cannot or will not pay that price.


It's difficult to navigate "cooperation rather than affiliation" with outside enterprises. It's also difficult humble yourself and surrender to god-as-we-understand-him.

Mike

*******************************************************
"When I've learned enough to really live, I'll be old enough to die" - Johnny Cash
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2013 - 9:10AM #70
kenn
Posts: 5
I understand why its misunderstood. I was a product of middle of the road aa for years. No one told me i could recover. Felt like i was lied to for years. It says we do in our book. People who don't want to see that may also not agree with making amends or taking others thru the steps. They pick and choose what they want from the book if they ever read it to begin with. Sobriety may be good enough for them.
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