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Switch to Forum Live View Recovered vs Recovering?
7 months ago  ::  Mar 31, 2014 - 8:11AM #91
Raysmtb1
Posts: 6

Hey Mike,


thanks for joining in on the conversation.



Your question of why does "recovered" not include continuing to learn or grow? I really put a lot of thought into this the last couple days. In my world, back in Cleveland, all the old-timers that taught me how it works would probably say.  " at best, you are only recovered today" . I believe that referring to yourself as "recovered"  often enough might work against some folks. Some folks if they tell themselves that they are recovered enough might not have the vigilance to realize that they need to continue to learn and grow. I think that's what bothers me about representing yourself as recovered. To the new people in the room, who truly are the most important people in the room , it kind of could be confusing unless you spent a lot of time studying the big book. If you really wanted to speak the truth you honestly should say, my name is Mike I'm a recovered alcoholic today. 


To many people , the word recovered means that they are fixed, they are complete, they don't have to worry anymore. I believe that the writings were in reference to ,  you could recover from the side effects of ingesting too much alcohol, get back to a sound state of health minded body and then come up with a plan, that Alcoholics Anonymous will show you, one day at a time, that could keep you that way for the rest of your life.



like I said before, I've never read the big book. Can you inform me of where it says in the big book at what point it's safe to consider ourselves recovered? For such a monumental event I would think that there is a paragraph on it somewhere in the book. Seriously, I'm not trying to be smart ass I really would like to know.



The final thought I have is I decided to look at this situation I found at this meeting in Florida. Let's say you're the new guy at the meeting and you there under your own will, you know you're not healthy and you really need to make a change. As the meeting winds up two different people make a comment.


The first one stands up and says my name is Lou and I'm a recovered alcoholic. He opens up with a lot of page numbers from the big book and drilling down into sentences and remind everybody how long he's been sober. The mood set forth might be, I know a lot, I'm important. Sounds like a drunk... LOL



The second guy says hi my name is frank and I'm a recovering alcoholic. "I would just like to remind everybody that sobriety is a one day at a time proposition. For you new people out there we're not asking you to quit drinking for the rest of your life just for today. If you stay here, you're in for an amazing journey. We hope you'll join us."


when I was that new guy sitting in the meeting and I wasn't sure if I was going to come back, the guys message from the second example was the one that I wanted. I was attracted to his sense of serenity and peace and love. He didn't try to jam all these facts from the big book down my throat. His messages worked on the basics , his messages got me healthy and they got me sober and they help me deal with my emotions. They did this all without me even knowing it.  His messages showed me a new way of life in peace and serenity and love . It was very attractive and I stayed. That was how I wanted to live my life.



Here is another example of what bothers me about being "recovered". If it has to be explained to me, a guy who  has a lifelong background in AA, some first-hand and some secondhand. then how are you going to explain it to the new guy whose brains are scrambled?



thanks again for your input Mike this has been very enjoyable to me. It was an unexpected dredging up of what I really knew about how I got sober. I feel like Ibe really stirred the pot! It feels awesome. I hope you get the same effects and an awesome sober day.







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6 months ago  ::  Apr 07, 2014 - 12:39AM #92
mikeincolorado
Posts: 393

Thankis for a thought reply.


the only place I can think of where the word safe is used is in the section on step 10 (page 83-ish), and then it is used to describe the feeling of having sanity restored.


Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't offer safety. It offers a way to find a power that will solve my alcoholic problem.


as far as newcomers are concerned I don't find it necessary to manage the message with them, for 2 main reasons;


1. They aren't listening. ;) Most are incapable. 


2. Experiencing Step 2 will keep them sober, not me and anything I have to say. 


I believe my job is to be honest as I can and share my experience. From time to time that does mean I introduce myself mater-of-factly as a recovered alcoholic.  


I don't try to explain it. it can't be explained, only experienced.


My goal isn't to explain, but rather suggest that there are other ways to view things. That was all I needed to make a beginning. An open mind is a core tenant of this way of life, and opening my mind to the possibility of "recovered" allowed me to have an experience that I could not have had otherwise. Living sober is today a wonderful gift for me, whereas before it was a tremendous burden that I tried to pretend wasn't.

Mike

*******************************************************
"When I've learned enough to really live, I'll be old enough to die" - Johnny Cash
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6 months ago  ::  Apr 07, 2014 - 7:46AM #93
Seefan
Posts: 3,962

Apr 7, 2014 -- 12:39AM, mikeincolorado wrote:


Thankis for a thought reply.


the only place I can think of where the word safe is used is in the section on step 10 (page 83-ish), and then it is used to describe the feeling of having sanity restored.


Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't offer safety. It offers a way to find a power that will solve my alcoholic problem.


as far as newcomers are concerned I don't find it necessary to manage the message with them, for 2 main reasons;


1. They aren't listening. ;) Most are incapable. 


2. Experiencing Step 2 will keep them sober, not me and anything I have to say. 


I believe my job is to be honest as I can and share my experience. From time to time that does mean I introduce myself mater-of-factly as a recovered alcoholic.  


I don't try to explain it. it can't be explained, only experienced.


My goal isn't to explain, but rather suggest that there are other ways to view things. That was all I needed to make a beginning. An open mind is a core tenant of this way of life, and opening my mind to the possibility of "recovered" allowed me to have an experience that I could not have had otherwise. Living sober is today a wonderful gift for me, whereas before it was a tremendous burden that I tried to pretend wasn't.




I like that Mike!  Thanks for your thoughts ...

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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6 months ago  ::  Apr 08, 2014 - 11:27PM #94
Raysmtb1
Posts: 6

Hey guys,



thanks for the response. I'm back up north and looking forward to exploring this topic more with some old friends. I searched safe in my ipad big book. I found the sectioned you referenced.


“That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality–safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God’s will into all of our activities.”


Excerpt From: Anonymous, Alcoholic. “The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.


Check out this book on the iBooks Store: itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/...


i guess the guys that taught me, aired on the side of caution that is about mid way through the paragraph above. "We are not cured of alcoholism" thus....i am recovering and not recovered. 


Thanks very much for participating in this conversation. It's been exiting , enlightening and invigorating! 

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6 months ago  ::  Apr 09, 2014 - 11:58AM #95
Seefan
Posts: 3,962

Apr 8, 2014 -- 11:27PM, Raysmtb1 wrote:

  Hey guys, thanks for the response. I'm back up north and looking forward to exploring this topic more with some old friends. I searched safe in my ipad big book. I found the sectioned you referenced.


“That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality–safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God’s will into all of our activities.”


Excerpt From: Anonymous, Alcoholic. “The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.


Check out this book on the iBooks Store: itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/...


i guess the guys that taught me, aired on the side of caution that is about mid way through the paragraph above. "We are not cured of alcoholism" thus....i am recovering and not recovered. 


Thanks very much for participating in this conversation. It's been exiting , enlightening and invigorating! 



I think you might have understood what we are saying ... we are recovered from the effects of alcoholism but not cured of the disease ... Wink


Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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6 months ago  ::  Apr 09, 2014 - 5:34PM #96
Raysmtb1
Posts: 6

Hey seefan,



I understand. We have all agreed that we are recovered from the effects of drinking alcohol , but still work daily on the disease of our alcoholism.  I think we are basically right back where we started. LOL. my concern was and has always been, that stating in a meeting that you are a recovered alcoholic was confusing to me. Thus, it would be confusing to the most important guy in the room, The new guy.


i looked up the word " recover"in the dictionary. It is a verb. It's meaning is, return to a normal state of health, mind or strength. "Recovered " is the "past participle", "recovering" is the "present participle." When we stand up at a meeting and introduce ourselves and say....hi my name is Lou,  i am a recovered alcoholic. I don't think the statement even makes any sense from a sentence structure stand point. when you introduce yourself, it is done in the present. You don't introduce yourself from the past. 



I think the the proper way to use the word "recovered" in a introduction at a meeting would be....hI, may name is Lou, so far today, I am recovered from the effects of drinking alchohol. I am still recovering from my alcoholism. 



I love this conversation , I haven't used these parts of my brain for a very long time. Thanks for Participating! 

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6 months ago  ::  Apr 09, 2014 - 6:18PM #97
Seefan
Posts: 3,962

Apr 9, 2014 -- 5:34PM, Raysmtb1 wrote:

  Hey seefan,


I understand. We have all agreed that we are recovered from the effects of drinking alcohol , but still work daily on the disease of our alcoholism.  I think we are basically right back where we started. LOL. my concern was and has always been, that stating in a meeting that you are a recovered alcoholic was confusing to me. Thus, it would be confusing to the most important guy in the room, The new guy.



You give the newcomer too little credit, although the info given always needs to be clarified.  Think about - it had a positive affect on you.  It caused you to seek out answers and discuss what it meant.  But as I said, there is no reason to identify that you are recovered or recovering.  What qualifies us to be in the rooms is that we are alcoholics ...


Apr 9, 2014 -- 5:34PM, Raysmtb1 wrote:

  i looked up the word " recover"in the dictionary. It is a verb. It's meaning is, return to a normal state of health, mind or strength. "Recovered " is the "past participle", "recovering" is the "present participle." When we stand up at a meeting and introduce ourselves and say....hi my name is Lou,  i am a recovered alcoholic. I don't think the statement even makes any sense from a sentence structure stand point. when you introduce yourself, it is done in the present. You don't introduce yourself from the past. 



The word 'recovered' taken in isolation may mean the past but if we are in the process of recovering we are not recovered today.  However, as the result of yesterday's actions and personal state of being, we are 'recovered' from that seemingly hopeless state, so when we are saying we are recovered we are referring to the rescent past as the proof, if this makes sense?  One is either recovered or recovering, not both at once.  If you were recovered yesterday what happened in the meantime to cause you to be recovering?  lol ... I guess the question might bewhat is the state I'm in NOW ...


Apr 9, 2014 -- 5:34PM, Raysmtb1 wrote:

  I love this conversation , I haven't used these parts of my brain for a very long time. Thanks for Participating! 



Yes!  It's been great!  And thank you as well ...




Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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6 months ago  ::  Apr 16, 2014 - 11:59AM #98
Seefan
Posts: 3,962

Here's a site that maybe of help in deciding whether one is recovered or recovering or even if it is possible to recover.  An added question is also raised with regard to what cured from alcoholism is possible!  The bottom line for me is why we need to say either unless we leave an explaination of exactly what we mean and how that looks in everyday life as an alcoholic ....


www.sober.org/Recover.html  Smile


Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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