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7 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2007 - 8:46PM #1
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,779
i was told at OA that because I was angry with God even though I believed in him I am an Agnostic because everyone who is addicted and hasnt gotten support from a 12 Step group is an Agnostic because you cant come to know God if your addicted until you get help until you do you are an Agnostic, i disagree with that first place many people who are addcited know God like me, its just that my relationship with God is into at its best place because of my addiction.

Also OA like AA teaches that you dont have God untill you get the programin the  first place thats superiorism,
and its wrong, number 2 they also teach that when you get a sponser you do exactly as your sponser says to the tee even if you disagree with them or dont understand you do it without questiong it, that to me puts your sponser in a place of power over you. Also sense its mandatory to go to your sponser with spiritual issues and take spiritual guidance from your sponser its just a hop skip and a jump away fro the Christian to start believing they sent there to witness to their sponserees, everyone in my group is Christian.

I know, they also said you have a "God of your own understnading" they stress that but I really think the Christian many times interprets that as a personal relationship with Christ.

theyd also probably say though its a temptaion to use your power to get someone over to jesus its not neccesary true that they do do that.

Sorry, not buying it, thats too much of a questionable situation to accept spiritual guidance froma christian who believes Christianity is the only way, -uh uh- sorry, I dont really believe they can do it without going into witnessing dont believe it.

At this point theonly way Im going to stay with OA if I decided to stay is by getting a sponser over the net who believes like I do.

Whats the deal with that anyway, everyone is Agnostic who doesnt get god in a 12 Step program, sounds pretty biggoted to me.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2007 - 11:58PM #2
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
rider,

I don't know where you're getting your information, but AA itself does not require any belief in God whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, and anyone who tells you otherwise is pushing their own private agenda. Unfortunately, we can't control that,because no one in AA, individually or collectively, has the authority to boss anyone else around. My own sponsor was an atheist, and he'd been sober in AA for 23 years when I met him.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 12:37AM #3
mikeincolorado
Posts: 393
And decide for yourself what it means to be agnostic? Your life just might depend on it.

First I would ask you to consider : What do you have that is so great? I mean, if things are going so well, and your belief is all that, why go to OA? Go live your life.  I didn't come to AA because things were going well, I came because I had run out of options. But each of us has our own journey.

Send thing to consider: I don't know if you're aware, but just because somebody says something at a meeting, it doesn't make it true. If it's an AA meeting there's a good chance it isn't :)

Don't know how it works for a member of OA, but alcoholics won't be told what to believe. But we  will take every opportunity to be offended and look down on others, blame them for being close minded and judgmental, never realizing we are being every bit as close minded and judgmental as the people we are accusing.

This attitude also has the obvious appeal of not having to give up my way and listen (and do) what someone else suggests. If I did that, I just might find a solution to my problem. Wouldn't want that to happen. :p

So. Do you really give a shit about jesus, christianity, superiorism (I like that), or are you just looking for a reason to not take the steps and find out?

What ever you decide is fine, but be honest with yourself about WHY. This isn't about them and what they are doing and not doing. It's your life. This is about you and how you want to live.
Mike

*******************************************************
"When I've learned enough to really live, I'll be old enough to die" - Johnny Cash
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 6:44AM #4
jonesg
Posts: 504
" I really think the Christian many times interprets that as a personal relationship with Christ."

Thats their business.

Everyone has to sort this out for themself,  as long as it makes sense to you.
my book says But there is One who has all Power. That One is God.
That fairly well ended the internal debate for me.
Its about surrendering the will, ending the argument and getting stuck into the work of recovery.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 8:16PM #5
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,779
Ok, I was going to start a new thread and leave the Christianity out of it but these replies we'll just from here.

Starting from the atheist who replied, theres another group in Dallas who does just that leaves God out of it, so the spiritual part was discussed in OA and it was said by everyone in the group
that the spriitual awakening part of the program is neccesary to become abstinant and work the program, it would not work with Atheism this is also said at my Moms AA meting.

Number 2,leaving the Christianity out yes they say a God of my own understanding, they also said at both AA and OA,that I dont have God in my life because Im not working the steps, and that everyone who comes to 12 Step meetings is Agnostic and this is why the 4th chapter in the Big Book is "WE Agnostics" WE not I not you but WE, we're all Agnostics because none of us know God.They declare that i must work the program to come to know God, the addict can not know God and have a relationship with God without working the 12 Steps and being in a program.

Let me tell you something, Im not an Agnostic Im in the Self realization group and use Hare Krisna and Jesus as my Lord and savior, I ahve personal relationship with them

Why do I need to go to OA if I have a God of my own understanding already, thats not what OA is for, I weigh 300 pounds and I go to beome abstinant from food, if anyone says anythjing contrary their full of it.

Ive had too many people say to me "When you get into the program youll find God" You dont know God yet you havnt joined the program"

Sense theyve decided addicted people need God through the program to get abstinant or sober
from their addiction that they have to find it through the 12 Steps sounds like a religions to me hey.

Yes they say a God of my  own understanding it doesnt matter,if you believe you have to be in the 12 Step program to know God your a religion.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 8:50PM #6
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,779
You know something I talked to my Mom about this just now.
She said that she came into AA with God also, she knew God. Its just that AA helped her clarify the meaning of God and made her relationship with God better.
She sais that probably what they mean when tehy say you dont have God yet your not in the program.

Ok, i can come to terms with that.Here's the bottom line. everyone in OA and AA has a slogan
"This is a God proram," or "this is a God deal", they claim the program is ALL about God and spirituality.

Forget about eevrything else I said, this part alone, excludes me from OA and AA.Im not going there to hear about God and spirituality Im not. I weigh 300 pounds I only go to get abstinant end of story.

I dont have intention to sit around listening to people talk about God except my church, theyre the only ones I feel comfortable with discussing spirituality and God with, and infact some in
the UU church have offered to help me out with my diet and I may take them up on that.

But thats the whole bottom line,yes I do believe they have Christianize dit for the most part, but there are those who would argue that with me, so even if I were to play devils advocate and say ok I was wrong and your right I was paranoid, the bottom line is that the 12 Steps as a million people who have been there have told me its all about God about spirituality, and Im sorry Im not comfortable with talking spirituality or even hearing about it period unless its with my own group and thats all there is to it.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 10:41PM #7
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
rider,

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Is it God or other people and what they believe?
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 11:06PM #8
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,779
is it God? No, I said all they talk about is God and how its a spiritual program, its aGod talk,
Now that may for them, even my Mom says it is her church because she gets all her God talk there its all about God.

Thats fine if that works for you,Im happy my Mom is clean and sober it works for her.

But I dont believe its healthy for me to sit around in a group of people who are constantly talking about God and spriituality, I ahve my own church my own God and I dont feel safe or right about going to self help groups that talk about God all the time.I ahve a church i ahve a spiritual life,
you keep questioning me and anyone else and Ill just drop out, it seems like you dont want to hear me, another favorite trick of people in 12 Step programs, theres a saying take what you want and leave the rest.

It seems like to me with the heavy feeling of spirituality and God talk there are going to be those who dont want to be involved with getting help with their addiction, by becoming zealous for God and Im one of them its as simple as that.

Its not just me,theres one guy who says he does fine with AA as an Atheist, you know what he wouldnt do fine at our group staying an Atheist, people who come ina s Atheists in our meeting either eventually change and accept God in their life or they quit. There is a problem with that there is a problem with self help groups who sit around and talk about God all the time and I have proof PROOF you hear.

Whats my proof that others  have the same problem , SOS, a self help group in Dallas
that leaves out completely God and spirituality, many Atheists and Agnostics go there because they are not comfortable with all the God and spiritual talk that goes on in AA.

Theres also a Pagan AA and OA for those of us who already belong to another religion and feel like the God talk is getting in the way of them practicing their religion and that AA and OA has gotten Christianized.

So if you want to sit there and question me like Im crazy you go right ahead sweetie,I have a zillion people who believe the same way I do sorry Im not aLOne in this, we dont believe you need to sit around and talk God talk like that to get sober or abstinant for food, and it makes me feel like Im in church,

HERES A BIG ONE FOR YOU:AND SENSE IM WORKING A SPIRITUAL PROGRAM FROM ANOTHER GROUP ALREADY UU< I FRANKLY DONT HAVE THE TIME AND ENERGY TO PUT INTO ANOTHER SPIRITUAL PROGRAM IS ANOTHER GOD ITS CONFUSING AND I DONT NEED THAT MUCH HASSLE AND CONFUSION IN MY LIFE< I HAVE A GOD OF MY OWN UNDERSTANDING ALREADY< I DONT NEED TO GET A NEW ONE AT AA>

Im screaming because you are listening to me.

Its simple I think its rediculous to make it mandatory to tlak all about God all the time, its a church, it feels like a church my Mom says its her church, I have a church I dont need one more
how difficult is that to explain.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 11:36PM #9
cherubino
Posts: 7,277
rider,

In my attendance so far at approximately six thousand five hundred AA meetings, exactly two people have ever tried to  persuade me that I have to believe what they believe. Both incidents combined took up less than ten minutes of my time.

Now if I had a mind to do it, I'm sure I could engage others in conversations about their beliefs and then tell myself they were trying to sell me something. But just because a cow pie happens to be  on the path I'm walking,  that doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to step in it.
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2007 - 11:36PM #10
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,779
let me put it to you in a way you can understand.Im sorry I yelled.

I have the UU chruch, and my religion spiritual path I practice there to back me up, i dont have time or energy to put into another spiritual program, that would be like working 2 programs dont have the time and energy Im working a program with UU, my spiritual program and everything I can get from AA and OA I cant get there.I only wanted to attend OA a couple of times to see if it would help with my absitance with food, not to start a spiritual program but tsense Ive been there twice have the revelation that thats all they talk about and all their concerned with is getting me to have a spiritual conversion through their program their obsessed with it, i have no need for a program that is constantly talking God and spirituality, i already have a program for that at church.Outside of my church, I want nothing to do with talking spirtuality and God with anyone, i have my hands and life full completly with spirituality from my church, theres no room in my life for another spiritual program.

It reminds me of these AA people who both belong to Rapha Christian AA and secular AA, even my Mom says its confusin and frankly Ive heard at leaste one speaker at my Moms clud speak who said, that if your going to choose church for your program do it and stick with it but dont work 2 programs its too confusing, either AA or  youre church program thats it. you work 2 programs youll get messed up its confusing, so i ahve no intention of messing myself up more by working 2 spiritual programs its too much.
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