Jan 26, 2012 -- 7:19PM, cherubino wrote:

Even more disconcerting than the theism itself is the overtone of parental or institutional authority that goes with it. Every theology, and indeed every anti-theology for that matter, implies a model for how society is supposed to be governed. Needless to say, the theists fancy that as spokesmen for the divine, their rightful place is at the top of the heap. But the peculiar genius of AA is that it doesn't have any oficial positions of authority to which these folks can aspire. There's no rank of bishop in AA, but for God's sake don't ever tell that to some of my dearest friends.

That's true.  And as you can see, I'm a bit of a rabble rouser at times.  So at meetings if someone starts pimping Jesus, I might make a comment about "Jewish Zombies" or something of the like to make a more clever version of the simpler point of keeping specific religions/gods out of it.  

Makes sense too-that way, hopefully we can all relate to the real point (which doesn't require jesus, or zeus, or anybody else) and get back to what I personally value, and what I believe is the TRUE magic of AA:  The Fellowship.  (btw, JR Tolkien stole the concept from Bill W.)

Jan 26, 2012 -- 10:25PM, cherubino wrote:

Jan 26, 2012 -- 9:16PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

That's true.  And as you can see, I'm a bit of a rabble rouser at times.  So at meetings if someone starts pimping Jesus, I might make a comment about "Jewish Zombies" or something of the like to make a more clever version of the simpler point of keeping specific religions/gods out of it.  

Makes sense too-that way, hopefully we can all relate to the real point (which doesn't require jesus, or zeus, or anybody else) and get back to what I personally value, and what I believe is the TRUE magic of AA:  The Fellowship.  (btw, JR Tolkien stole the concept from Bill W.)

I don't know where you live, but here in northern New England the theists and the Jesus people are, for the most part, a quiet minority. But a friend of mine who spends summers here and winters in southern Georgia tells me it can get pretty rough down there.

Well, I'm from Colorado Springs, which is the christian fundamentalist capital of the world.  Interestingly, one of its suburbs, Manitou Springs is also the Wiccan capital of the world, and there is a large gay, lesbian, bi, trans community as well-it's quite the melting pot of extreme views.  Now I live in a smaller town which is about 20% mormon, and it's relatively liberal, but I am very much a minority in my spiritual beliefs.  

But it's still a very christian atmosphere-my 6 year old daughter started first grade this year, and within the first month, she was bullied, knocked down several times and threatened to be thrown in the street by another boy in her class as he dragged her on the ground (after knocking her down the 3rd time) toward the street... he was simply responding to her comment of "But I don't believe in any gods" in response to him talking about jesus.   Frightening how early hate and craziness can begin.  

Before that happened (a few days earlier), when the discussion of gods and lack thereof first took place, his first response to her (and her atheism) was "You're stupid, and your flower is stupid!" (she had a pretty flower in her hair), the little sweety responded by writing him a card, drawing a picture and so forth and presented it to him to try to make friends with him-the first enemy she'd encountered in life.  He roughly knocked it out of her hand and walked off.  Know what she did then?  It had said "From Amelia"  and "To Victor", she crossed out his name, and wrote in her own name...  She is a clear example of nature over nurture-I cannot take credit for such an impressive human being, but for some reason and great fortune, she is in my life.

Jan 27, 2012 -- 2:00AM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

By the way cherubino, you do realize that squirrels are the minions of Lucifer himself right?  I warned you!!! Oh how I warned you!!!

When I was still new in Alcoholics Anonymous in 1989, I was at a meeting where the speaker was a local clergyman who was then sober a little over a year. For context I should add that there were several people in the cheapseats that night who had been dry since Lyndon Johnson was President. This fellow breezed through his drinking career with a couple of sweeping banalities, and then for half an hour he preached down to us: "You must blah blah..." and "God wants you to blah blah..." -- which, for those unfamiliar with AA etiquette around here, is roughly the faux pas equivalent of raffling off condoms at a church bake sale.

Afterwards, I overheard another newbie ask his sponsor, "Who the hell does he think he is, God's gift to AA?"

"He is God's gift to AA, Jack," the oldtimer answered with a twinkle in his eye. "He just doesn't know that yet."

Jan 27, 2012 -- 2:35PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Seems strange to have a speaker so young in the program, but I guess it's not that uncommon.  

The dangerous people in the world are fanatics.  Personally, I don't care how you get help-but I'm happy for you if you find something that works for you.  Some people care more about strict adherence to the 12 steps than they do your sobriety.  I would say that somewhere along the way-they forgot the point.

But this preacherman you describe, sounds very familar to me.  I care less about the god stuff than the "you should..." stuff.  That part is highly common-hell, it just happened to me in the 75 year thread... again, just this morning for pete's sake.  

And I remember this same person in those rooms-they knew it all, they were leading the rest of us, and yet strangely... they were so unhappy and usually angry.  The last part of course made the natural reaction to them something other than the respect they felt they commanded.  And this person can be found not only after one year, but sometimes, he may be holding a 20 year chip.... go figure.

I find that belligerence is frequently found in the program, but I personally have not found it within the "agnostics" as the BB would claim.

The funny thing is that the most closed-minded, doctrinaire and intolerant fundamentalists I've ever had to deal with personally were the behaviorists in the sociology department at the U of Wisconsin in the late 1960's and early 70's. And just to rub it in, several of them toed the atheist-agnostic party line Monday through Saturday, and then went to church on Sunday.

Jan 27, 2012 -- 8:18PM, Bob_the_Lunatic wrote:

Life is full of ironies... There is an atheist on the atheist board that claims to be a humanist, yet I think he acts like a rabid dog and shows no behavior consistent with humanism lol.  Life is too short to talk to such people for very long.... but I see no problem in smacking them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper :)

Personally, I prefer the lost art of damning with faint praise, which is the ability to tell someone to go straight to hell with such delicate finesse that for the next twenty minutes they're looking forward to the trip.

The average person can, with very little practice, master this in about an hour. But someone with your extraordinary communication skills, wit, education, erudition and cosmopolitan savoir-faire should be able to get the hang of it in three or four months, tops.