|2 years ago :: Mar 03, 2013 - 10:07PM #21|
wondering: You're right about my attitude in my original post --- I was upset--- I am still upset about this whole thing. Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH & the life..." No one comes to the father unlsees it's thru the TRUTH & I think it's clear that your commitment to your family & community is more important to you than TRUTH. I had no agenda against LDS--- I admire the commitments the members make to their faith---- I saw people willing to go on missions & sacrifice so much out of a love of God--- I was open minded & interested in learning more--- but what I found is that all the WORKS I saw that I admired, those do not glorify God instead they are done for the LAW--- if it's law then it's not done out of love & when I read JS's own words and saw how inconstant his principals are compared to the principals of Christ-- I wanted to understand why people believe JS is necessary in any way to Christianity--- any more than we all are. But if a person is willing to deny the TRUTH about failures & mistakes then the TRUTH is not in them.
You were saying that people find faults with the regualar bible and then you went on to say that they're arguments shouldn't effect my faith---- I can assure you that I have not yet had anyone present any arguments against what I believe -- what I learned about my Heavenly Father through His word & thru prayer---- I spent a lot of time ministering to atheists on Instagram (before I became so consumed with reading LDS scripture & trying to see the truths about it all) feel free to read thru any of my conversations or posts there @mamadusty1111---- They pose endless questions & claim to see contradictions in our bible---- and it always turns out that the contradiction or the mistakes they identify come from religious doctrine NOT from actual scripture.
I've studied the bible passionately for over ten years--- I have a rare medical disorder that has left me physically unable to work, or do much physically at all, so I've poured my energy into my faith. Faith comes from hearing- hearing from the word of God---- I've research the language & the variations in biblical text--- I have sought TRUTH with all my heart & mind--- without fear of losing my church--- or my families support--- I love God above all humans & all material securities--- as a result I have lost my church community--- the bible suggests we should be willing to lose EVERYTHING. But what I gained was a faith that I SERIOUSLY 100% believe.
I question my faith frequently, but I never doubt it. The reason I don't doubt is because the word of God (not the additions by Joseph Smith) has not failed any test anyone has presented me yet. Not in discussion or life experience in general. Church doctrine has failed plenty of times--- but the bible has not. That's one readon why I KNOW that JS was not truthful about his claims. Because his "word of God" has been proven contradictory & wrong--- He dies LESS THAN A YEAR after he claimed Jesus Christ said thZion bunch of things about JS's future.... D&C 132 if I'm not mistaken--- less than a year! During which time he did not seem to have the protection he claimed Christ promised him. The word of God doesn't fail & it's not about pleasing people---it's about freedom from the fears & concerns of this world---
Adam & Eve became conscious of the physical worlds effects when they ate from the fruit of the knowledge of good & evil---- I've studied the history and use of the word EVIL and discovered that it essentially always means "thoughts and/or concerns of THIS world". Do you realize that the bible says "Satan is the god of this world"? Evil is about this world, so is sin, Jesus came to deliver the TRUTH about the FACT that this world no longer has any lasting power over us because He overcame it. That's the goodnews--- it's simple & it's the only way to God.
I feel sad that people who truly want to serve God are instead forced to choose between free will & family--- and choose to give up the freedom to keep their traditions & relationships. No one can be righteous according to the laws--- and if they were to keep all the law, then the glory would go to the law not to Jesus Christ. It's what the New Testament is ALL about. At least the one that JS didn't alter... Read Romans 7 without the false changes & see why I believe what I believe. These scriptures actually WORK to produce the fruits of the spirit---- unlike the anxiety, guilt, fear & shame that the JS versions create. The JS scriptures have been proven to be something other than what he claimed they were. He claimed the scriptures had been changed but its since been proven that the bible has remained the same for a miraculous amount of time-- he didn't know that we would someday have access to proof of this. I'm sorry-- but I pray you will seek TRUTH at all cost. You won't lose God-- He never said anyone would upset Him by questioning or checking facts---- that is JOSEPH SMITH doctrine. Truth saves---- Jesus is TRUTH! I am sorry no one could help me see any other possible ways of understanding JS & LDS. But there shouldn't be confusion about so much of it.
|2 years ago :: Mar 04, 2013 - 12:33AM #22|
You're getting ahead of yourself again.
First off, for D&C 132: you're making the all-too-common mistake of confusing "correlation" and "causation". In this case, you presume that Joseph was killed for making a statement that you disagree with. If this was indeed what happened, then shouldn't he have been struck down sooner? Rather, (I'll have to go back and find it) by the time this all came down JS was beginning to be pessimistic about his odds of continued survival due to all of the violent sentiment that the "Good Christians" and others of his era had towards the church and himself personall. Remember - two of his children were "collateral damage", with mob violence having contributed to their deaths.
Secondly, the "works" that you - and so many other critics - accuse us of doing aren't actually works in a theological sense. Rather, we're strong believers in James 2 and the admonition to have our deeds back up our words. You see, back when the church first started, "Cheap Grace" and "Once Saved, Always Saved" just weren't options; if a person didn't pull their weight, then they could put an entire community in mortal danger. There was no "I've said that I believe, so I'm just going to sit on the couch now" like what you see in so many other Christian denominations.
If you've studied the church as much as you've claimed to, then you would realize that the pioneer spirit still continues. As part of it, idleness is rather strongly discouraged. Again - saying "I said I believe, so I'm sitting down now and putting my feet up" doesn't cut it. There are so many things that need to be done in any given day that anyone who can lend a hand is sorely needed. I myself hold two positions right now, in large part because I'm one of the few people around who actually has the sort of qualifications needed for both. Or my dad is having to teach four Sunday School classes in his congregation because they're (hopefully temporarily) short-handed thanks to the Army re-assigning several families to different bases.
Ever get a call at 2 AM because someone's kitchen flooded? I have. I had to go wake my dad up and go down there to help stop the leak and do clean-up. And oh by the way I had to work the graveyard shift that night, meaning that I went right from cleaning up a mess to my job.
Ever spend 12+ hours in the Texas sun manning a booth at a local religious gathering with naught but two bathroom breaks and nothing to eat? I spent several hours of that going solo.
Ever get yourself so banged up that you could hardly walk but still get up to help prepare the sacrament because there weren't enough people to do it that Sunday? Did it. Twice. Once with a bad ankle (which may be part of the reason why it never healed right), and once with an injury that I initially dismissed as a pulled groin muscle due to over-exertion (I moved some heavy furniture the previous day) but which now I worry might be a small hernia (meaning that if it is, I've spent the past 5+ years walking around torn up inside).
To someone who preaches OSAS or Cheap Grace, what I did was "work" and so was excessive, if not sinful; as long as I'd already been "saved", I didn't need to go do any of that.
But to us Mormons? It's just a part of the job description.
Anyone who seriously believes "getting up off of the couch to help the body of believers" counts as "work" and so is against the Bible needs to seriously re-evaluate their lives.
|2 years ago :: Mar 05, 2013 - 2:54AM #23|
Ironhold: I think you must be reading my posts the same way you must be reading the Joseph Smith writings---- You misunderstood what I said about works & about the death of JS. I noticed that my text was messed up & nonsensical in the part about JS's death, but I don't see how you thought I meant God killed him for being a false prophet....? I was saying that JS claimed he got this revelation from Christ---- JS claims Jesus Christ said all sorts of things about Joseph's Smith future--- but in less than a year Joseph Smith no longer had a future. Couldn't God have protected His chosen one. In 1943 JS said that Jesus said he (JS) was the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH with the special power to seal marriages and speak for Him. He claimed The Lord had declared that ONLY ONE person in the whole earth can have the power at any time.... Then after Joseph Smith died they had a problem because JS hadn't passed the anointing on- or chosen his replacement--- He had chosen his brother to replace him--- but his brother died with him. Why would Jesus come to him & promise him all sorts of personal importance but then let him die before he actually did those things? I guess these are rhetorical questions since I feel like you guys Do not allow yourselves to listen to any logic. It's absurd that you would really think your church exclusively superior in acts of charity--- I had missionaries come to my home, knowing my physical condition and knowing I have young children & they didn't ask me if I needed anything... They didn't offer to pull the weeds sprouting up in my yard... I'm not saying they should have--- I'm just saying that your organization is not as over the top in do-goodery as you're implying. Oh wait I guess you only help members of the church? I'm not just trying to be rude--- I am angry when the TRUTH is not told.
And YES I have been woken up in the middle of the night to go fix a leak & clean up and then gone to work all night directly afterwards... Nonsense. I am not going to share with you my charitable sacrifices of my time--- because the bible suggests we shouldn't even let our right hand know what our left hand is doing--& if we tell about our good deeds and get the attention of men (or anyone) the we have received our reward in full--- Id prefer to have my life be known to God so that I can get my reward in heaven. I take the bible very seriously & I can't understand why you think it's just sorta important. Joseph Smith claimed to be a bible believer before he started the church--- but then all the sudden he's saying its incomplete? It (the regular bible) got him to meet God & Jesus and all the apostle's --- He restored it & changed things obviously all in an effort to support his claims of being a chosen prophet--- I've asked before & not gotten a clear answer "What simple & precious things did he actually restore?" the temple endowments are not simple AND they are obviously not restored because THE APOSTLES AND JESUS CHRIST NEVER DID THEM and the celestial marriage must also have been something new God created as a new thing for Mormons because the apostles & Jesus clearly didn't know about them either. Even in Joseph's Smith revised bible he didn't correct those scriptures where they speak differently about marriage, did he? I might be wrong- maybe he did change those parts--- because that's the only way his story would make sense---- but it seems he wasnt able to keep up with such details so well sometimes--- I would really like to know what NEW information he brought to the world.
And why is it that I have not yet been presented any arguments against the regular bible, despite the fact that I have had countless conversations with bitter atheists (by the way it always with them seeing truth they'd never seen before- and they don't argue with me) but yet there are countless questions about all of Josph Smiths writings that you just avoid or use his doctrine to support. You can't use his doctrine to try to prove his writings to be right! In one of your responses to me you said that one of the amazing things he did was hearing from God personally after so long the world had gone without a prophet... How does that make any sense? I'm suggesting he made it all up & you're saying that you believe he didn't make it up because duh obviously he is special since God talked to him or gave him a vision or whatever you said---- Are you serious? You believe his story because he says he spoke to God! That's just part of his story. And why did some of the men who said they saw & handled the golden plates fall away from the church? I think I would've done whatever Joseph Smith said I should if I KNEW for sure that he actually had received magical plates from another world--- Why wouldn't they be afraid to leave the church? Oh I know--- because they knew they had lied! They didn't admit their lies because it was so shameful what they did--- they would hurt & embarrass their families & destroy their own reputations.
I have lost hope in getting any real answers----& I feel like you have enough information to have made your own choice---- It's clear that your loyalty is to your family & your church NOT to the TRUTH & the light. Jesus is the TRUTH and no one comes to the father except by him. You avoid the light & deny the truth just so you can keep your community & avoid hurting your family or losing them. I Can't even imagine how painful that would be-- but I know Id have to choose Jesus over Joseph Smith. He causes people to focus on this world-- to feel condemnation & fear of loss--- When the bible actually teaches something different.
And I do not say "once saved always saved"----that's just too deceptive. The bible tells us that Holy Spirit leads us when we are in Christ and our spirit doesn't allow us to just sit on the couch with our feet up. The spirit of God causes behaviors that produce good fruits. Anything sinful is of the flesh and we are dead to the flesh--- anytime it causes us to do things that are not good--- we don't feel good about it---- that's how we know the law is right--- we agree within ourselves with the law--- but it's not us who sin--- it's our flesh--- we are stuck in our flesh until God separates the wheat from the tares and the TRUTH of us (our spirit-Christ living in us) is released from the flesh.
Its all in the bible. Nothing was lost that was needed. God protected what He wanted to & didn't need JS to fix it. Josph Smith got money and power and adventure from his stories--- What profit did the authors of the bible get for all their writings? Oh nothing, they gained nothing & somehow their words have been passed on for thousands of years? Im sorry but I think denial and ignoring all anti mormon information is a defense to protect a fragile delicate layer of thin ice that all LDS believers are skating on.
|2 years ago :: Mar 05, 2013 - 11:49AM #24|
Your argument is rather short-sighted in light of Christian history and the Bible itself. After all, most of the original Apostles were martyred for the cause, as were key figures such as Stephen and Paul.
In other words, not everybody comes out of it alive.
|2 years ago :: Mar 05, 2013 - 7:01PM #25|
Mama said; ………and it always turns out that the contradiction or the mistakes they identify come from religious doctrine NOT from actual scripture.
I too have studied the Bible. Thirty years ago I was witnessed to by a Born Again Christian and she challenged me. So I opened up my Bible, got a note book, a Strong’s Bible Concordance and began studying. I created my own glossary and went through two Bibles. The whole process has made me more securely planted in Mormonism than I was before.
It’s all in how you perceive it. There has been two separate laws or covenants given to mankind. The first was the Mosaic Law which while pointing to Christ could not save.
Nephi in the Book of Mormon writing 600 years before the birth of Christ said.
“Wherefore, we speak concerning the law (of Moses) that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ…” 2 Nephi 25
The second covenant is called the New and Everlasting Covenant. The word everlasting in the Hebrew is the same as eternal, it is the New and Eternal Covenant. It gives us eternal life.
Jesus said to his apostles
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt 28
Note he didn’t say teach them to have faith alone.
Paul wrote in Gal 6:2 “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ”
So there are some requirements to fulfil the law of Christ or the New and Everlasting Covenant.
There are three categories which might be labeled “works”. The first are physical things like baptism and other ordinances. The second are actual ‘good works’ like feeding the poor and homeless. Then there are useless works which some count up like brownie points.
I’ll start with the third one just to get it out of the way. These are works like saying endless prayers to do penance or taking long required pilgrimage to some sacred place.
None of this was ever required by the Lord for salvation.
The Lord warned
These are showy works done to be seen of men, again not required for salvation.
Now to the first one which is not a work at all but a blessings.
When Jesus prepared the sacrament for the first time “…he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them…” he served them. When he washed the feet of his apostles he got down on his own knees and washed their feet, he preformed the act of service.
I can not baptize myself, my portion is to show an act of faith by walking into the water but I’ll stand there all day if there is no one to bless me with the act of baptism. The person doing the baptism says “….I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost” this means he is acting as their agent and he is doing the work not me.
There are two kinds of sins, sins of commission and sins of omission. Truly repenting from sins of commission with godly sorrow is a lot of hard work.
In the Book of Mormon there is a conversation between Zeezrom and Amulek. Zeezrom wants to be saved in his sins but Amulek tells him;
“…I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins…”
When Christ visits the people of the Book of Mormon he says;
“Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin”
A person can not claim he is a follower of Christ and live in adultery, he must repent of that sin and change his life.
Part of the conversion process then includes repenting of past sins. Then as one “comes unto Christ” those sins will be forgiven or blotted out through the grace of Christ.
Now to actual ‘good works’ and sins of omission.
James wrote “ Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17
King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon taught; “And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.” Mosiah 2:17
And Joshua wrote “…choose you this day whom ye will serve; …..but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”
Note he does not say choose who you will worship but who you will serve.
In Matt 24 there are several parables which the Lord gives, the Ten Virgins, the Talents with the good a faithful servant. He talks about “a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats” and how this resembles when the King (that’s him he’s King of Israel) will “gathered all nations” for judgment. Those who were invited to his Fathers Kingdom were those “who gave me meat ..and ye gave me drink…took me in…clothed me ..sick and …visited me ….In prison, and ye came unto me”
Those who didn’t do those things were not invited into the Kingdom. But note too that those who were invited seemed genuinely surprised see that hadn’t been counting up brownie points. They were just helping others out of real concern and love of their fellowman.
Going back to 1 cor which I mentioned in my last post Paul goes on to say; “…and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing….though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, …and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.”
Charity is more than the giving of material things. It is defined as “the impartial love of other people” . This is what our Heavenly Father wants from us and we obtain or develop that kind of love through service to others.
So let me restate this, it not about chalking up points! It’s about developing Christ like love. When we reach that point we are ready to enter into his Kingdom.
Wise men still seek him.
|2 years ago :: Mar 05, 2013 - 7:21PM #26|
Mama “He claimed The Lord had declared that ONLY ONE person in the whole earth can have the power at any time.... Then after Joseph Smith died they had a problem because JS hadn't passed the anointing on- or chosen his replacement--- He had chosen his brother to replace him--- but his brother died with him. Why would Jesus come to him & promise him all sorts of personal importance but then let him die before he actually did those things?
Where are you getting all this information??
This revelation was given to Joseph Smith sometime before 1835; 9 years before he died.
“ Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.….The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling. And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.” D&C 107
Joseph Smith set up a system which we feel was inspired by God.
The Prophet holds all of the Keys of the priesthood. Together the 12 apostles hold all of the keys. When a Prophet dies these 12 choose one of their own, (it has always been the one with the most seniority but it doesn‘t have to be that way) they then bestow by the laying on of hands the keys of authority upon him.
Could it be Mama that some of the information you have been given is wrong??
Wise men still seek him.
|2 years ago :: Mar 06, 2013 - 9:33PM #27|
"What simple & precious things did he actually restore?" the temple endowments are not simple AND they are obviously not restored because THE APOSTLES AND JESUS CHRIST NEVER DID THEM and the celestial marriage must also have been something new God created as a new thing for Mormons because the apostles & Jesus clearly didn't know about them either.”
He restored much of the knowledge about God which had been distorted by Greek Hellenism.
He writes Eph 5:31 this way;
Now going back to the KJV and Mark 10
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
It seems to me the very words ‘till death do you part” are man made, at least I never found them in the Bible.
Then there is this from Paul
“Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” 1 Cor 11:11
And then from Peter who was given the power to bind on earth that which is bound in heaven.
“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.” 1Peter 3:7
It's all there ya just have been trained not to see it.
Wise men still seek him.