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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 9:38AM #31
Ironhold
Posts: 11,549

May 6, 2012 -- 2:08AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Yes, even the atheist or Hindu aid worker that helps the poor, loves his enemies and wants to be a peacemaker is more Christian than the "Christian" who breeds hatred, bias and division in the world by chronically compartmentalizing the God-favoured from the God-forsaken.



The problem is that for a lot of people, having to admit that a person can be a "Christian" but not be Christ-like would force them to admit to things they don't want to admit to.


It would also force them to admit that perhaps the folks they disagree with might have something right.



Welcome to the board.

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 11:02AM #32
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 6, 2012 -- 1:28AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Joe; WWA, with the warning Christians are given in the NT about false Christs and false gospels it is difficult to understand your view that we must accept anyone and every one who says “I’m a Christian” –


That’s because I’m not worrying whether they are saved or not. I see you as a nice Christian man, you try to follow Christ the best you know how to. I disagree with you but your salvation is between you and the Lord.


I do tend to draw the line on accepting Christ as deity or not. There are some who claim to be followers of Jesus but they do not accept him as the Son of God. To me that is not Christian, it’s like belonging to a club or something.


Joe; An atheist can give to the poor. Does that make him a Christian? A pagan can obey her parents. Does that make her Christian?


What you are asking is are they saved? Because the atheist feeds the poor is he saved? You are equating again the word Christian to being saved, only saved people can call themselves Christian.


Yet you agree there are many who accept all your points of doctrine and on the outside appear to be Christian but they are not save for they lack that personal relationship. So they can’t really be Christian by your definition can they?


There are Muslims and under the umbrella of Muslims there are many different sects. There are Hindus and under the Hindu umbrella there are many different sects. The same is true of Christianity, it’s a large umbrella with many different denominations. Some Christians are saved and some are not.


Paul answered your question;
Rom 2 (Barclay)


“…When the heathen who do not possess any law do by natural instinct what the law demands, although they possess no law, they are their own law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts. On the day when God judges the secrets of men through Jesus Christ …their conscience will agree with the verdict and their own inmost thoughts will accuse them, or even sometimes excuse them..”




WWA: That’s because I’m not worrying whether they are saved or not. …..your salvation is between you and the Lord.


That may be your personal position but that is not the official LDS position. And that is what we are discussing. The fact the Mormon church sends out thousands of its missionaries every year means they are worried about others salvation (as they see it) and don’t think it is something between an individual and the Lord. 


What you are asking is are they saved?


Saved = Having been reconciled to God solely of the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross which enables to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and live a live of love as they do God’s will in this life and looking forward to the day that they will live with Jesus in heaven.  


Because the atheist feeds the poor is he saved?


Since he rejects God, he is not reconciled to God. Whether one does "good" things does not reconcile one to God. That is done only via Jesus Christ.


Yet you agree there are many who accept all your points of doctrine and on the outside appear to be Christian but they are not save for they lack that personal relationship. So they can’t really be Christian by your definition can they?


If one is not reconciled to God then no they do not fit the biblical definition of being saved.




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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 11:04AM #33
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 6, 2012 -- 9:33AM, Ironhold wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Joe68 wrote:


The way Christians treat the poor, care for their cities, treat orphans and widows is a good indication whether the Christian or the Church takes seriously the Gospel one professes. The Gospel is not just words one professes. The Gospel is words one professes accompanied by action that demonstrates a heart- transformation has been wrought by the Holy Spirit resulting in the display of the fruits of the Spirit, godliness and service to the King of Kings, for His glory alone.




You're still dodging the issue.


Is a self-professed Christian who lives in sin - by which I mean they lie, cheat, steal, and do all sorts of other actions - any better than a "non-Christian" who lives a life of virtue?




The problem is that you are trying to come to some sort of conclusion without considering all the types of people. In general terms one could breakdown the types of people in the world into four categories.


1) One who rejects* the Biblical Christ and lives a life of sin.


2) One who rejects the Biblical Christ but tries to live a righteous life.


3) One who accepts the Biblical Christ but lives a life of sin.


4) One who accepts the Biblical Christ and tries to live a righteous life


You are only considering type 2 and 3. They are both in the same boat concerning their eternal destination, joining up with type 1 on the way. Type 4 will have a much different post life experience.


If one wishes to get into the splitting of the hairs then one would then have to be able to determine which is worse: being an out right sinner, following a false Christ, or being a hypocritical or false believer. For me I say let God sort that out.


Also I bristle at the term “better”. Type 4 is not necessarily “better” than the others. I’d say they conform themselves to what Jesus desires of all people and thus are in a much more preferred position concerning their relation to God.


*Reject can be taken to mean not accept or be indifferent.




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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 11:57AM #34
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,288

Joe; That may be your personal position but that is not the official LDS position. And that is what we are discussing. The fact the Mormon church sends out thousands of its missionaries every year means they are worried about others salvation (as they see it) and don’t think it is something between an individual and the Lord.



Yes but we still refer to them as Christians, most have a basic faith in Christ we are just offering them further light and knowledge.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 12:24PM #35
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,903

May 6, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Joe68 wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 2:08AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


The faith Jesus taught in the gospels was never salvation-centric but love-centric. Salvation was preached only as a secondary teaching -- as a carrot for the weaker minds in order that they too learn to love others even if only for self-preservation. Much of the most raucous forms of Christianity today is palpably self-centric (read: salvation-centric). It seems more concerned with what God can give me, and how to sell that self-serving gift to others. It is concerned with God serving us. By contrast, the faith exemplified by Jesus in the gospels is concerned with serving God by serving others. Some would of course regard saving others by clamorous evangelizing as "serving others", rather than unconditional acts of kindness and goodness to others without any strings attached. I personally believe that the Great Commission was never meant to be the Great Commercial.


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:35)


Yes, even the atheist or Hindu aid worker that helps the poor, loves his enemies and wants to be a peacemaker is more Christian than the "Christian" who breeds hatred, bias and division in the world by chronically compartmentalizing the God-favoured from the God-forsaken. Joel Osteen clearly carries the torch of grace better than some other Christians. And they begrudge him for his gracious views by appeal to certain oft-repeated but seriously misquoted Bible verses. God is not a theological nit-picker. He looks at the purity of our hearts.


I may disagree with the Mormons on much of their theological doctrine, but I think in practice they are often far better Christians than most. That's what counts in God's sight even more than theological accuracy. And while I'm at it, the salvation-cultists (who confidently declare they're true Christians while the rest ain't) aren't theologically accurate either if we were to nit-pick on what the NT actually says.


When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, "Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?" Gandhi replied, "Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."


Kind regards,


LilWabbit




The faith Jesus taught in the gospels is neither salvation centric nor love centric. It is Christ centric.



Ah, and what happened to "God is love"? Secondly, you evidently haven't understood your gospels but rather taken a few verses out of context to support your a priori personal leanings. Jesus never drew attention to Himself and never asked anyone to worship Him as their saviour. He was ever adamant to refer everything to His Father. And please don't shove John 14:6 or John 1:1 down my throat as if they counter my point in any way. Christ-centrism is a later invention (starting from Athanasius and brought to fruition by Augustine) by your fellow-Jesus-cultists (a.k.a. "True Christians"). Jesus never said:


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye worship Me as your saviour.


He said:


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


Your way of dedicating an entire thread to diss Osteen and the Mormons is insolent, un-Christ-like and demonstrates a weakness of faith. What makes me angry is your arrogant dismissive tone, and I'm glad to see how the Mormons prove their value by merely behaving better than you. I don't claim I do.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit


 

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 1:52PM #36
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,288

LilWabbit; …..and I'm glad to see how the Mormons prove their value by merely behaving better than you



Oh I can be pretty blunt, curt and angry at times.



BTW; Welcome

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:23PM #37
Ironhold
Posts: 11,549

May 6, 2012 -- 12:24PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


Your way of dedicating an entire thread to diss Osteen and the Mormons is insolent, un-Christ-like and demonstrates a weakness of faith. What makes me angry is your arrogant dismissive tone, and I'm glad to see how the Mormons prove their value by merely behaving better than you. I don't claim I do.




I'm a marked man.


I've had threats of violence leveled against me simply for being proud of being Mormon, and I'm starting to lose track of the number of ministers and professional authors who have come down on me over the years.


That's right: I probably have a price on my head as we speak.


Compared to those guys, Joe isn't anything special, and certainly nothing to get upset over.

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 3:17AM #38
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 6, 2012 -- 12:24PM, Lilwabbit wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Joe68 wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 2:08AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


The faith Jesus taught in the gospels was never salvation-centric but love-centric. Salvation was preached only as a secondary teaching -- as a carrot for the weaker minds in order that they too learn to love others even if only for self-preservation. Much of the most raucous forms of Christianity today is palpably self-centric (read: salvation-centric). It seems more concerned with what God can give me, and how to sell that self-serving gift to others. It is concerned with God serving us. By contrast, the faith exemplified by Jesus in the gospels is concerned with serving God by serving others. Some would of course regard saving others by clamorous evangelizing as "serving others", rather than unconditional acts of kindness and goodness to others without any strings attached. I personally believe that the Great Commission was never meant to be the Great Commercial.


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:35)


Yes, even the atheist or Hindu aid worker that helps the poor, loves his enemies and wants to be a peacemaker is more Christian than the "Christian" who breeds hatred, bias and division in the world by chronically compartmentalizing the God-favoured from the God-forsaken. Joel Osteen clearly carries the torch of grace better than some other Christians. And they begrudge him for his gracious views by appeal to certain oft-repeated but seriously misquoted Bible verses. God is not a theological nit-picker. He looks at the purity of our hearts.


I may disagree with the Mormons on much of their theological doctrine, but I think in practice they are often far better Christians than most. That's what counts in God's sight even more than theological accuracy. And while I'm at it, the salvation-cultists (who confidently declare they're true Christians while the rest ain't) aren't theologically accurate either if we were to nit-pick on what the NT actually says.


When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, "Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?" Gandhi replied, "Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."


Kind regards,


LilWabbit




The faith Jesus taught in the gospels is neither salvation centric nor love centric. It is Christ centric.



Ah, and what happened to "God is love"? Secondly, you evidently haven't understood your gospels but rather taken a few verses out of context to support your a priori personal leanings. Jesus never drew attention to Himself and never asked anyone to worship Him as their saviour. He was ever adamant to refer everything to His Father. And please don't shove John 14:6 or John 1:1 down my throat as if they counter my point in any way. Christ-centrism is a later invention (starting from Athanasius and brought to fruition by Augustine) by your fellow-Jesus-cultists (a.k.a. "True Christians"). Jesus never said:


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye worship Me as your saviour.


He said:


By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


Your way of dedicating an entire thread to diss Osteen and the Mormons is insolent, un-Christ-like and demonstrates a weakness of faith. What makes me angry is your arrogant dismissive tone, and I'm glad to see how the Mormons prove their value by merely behaving better than you. I don't claim I do.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit





LilWabbit: Ah, and what happened to "God is love"?


“God is love” tells us of one of the basic attributes of God. But it does not tell us what the gospel is.


Secondly, you evidently haven't understood your gospels but rather taken a few verses out of context to support your a priori personal leanings.


Well it is easy to make that accusation, but a bit more difficult to prove. Good luck.


Jesus never drew attention to Himself and never asked anyone to worship Him as their saviour.


Jesus accepted worship - Matthew 2:2, 8, 11 . Matthew 28:9, Matthew 14:3, Matthew 28:17, John 9:38, Hebrews 1:6


Whether he asked for it is irrelevant. He accepted it. If it was inappropriate He would have stopped it.


He was ever adamant to refer everything to His Father.


Jesus lived a life of submission to the Father and of service to people as the ultimate exemplar for us as to how we should live. This should already be obvious from Philp 2 --"let this attitude be in you which was in Christ Jesus", but it is pervasive in the New Testament. From the 'it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher' to the foot-washing 'I have left you an example to follow', His life was the model for all of us. "Walk as He did", "love one another as I have loved you", "ask your heavenly Father", and on and on--He modeled what authentic, life-bearing humanity was to be. His submission to the Father does not negate his deity or his role as Savior.


 And please don't shove John 14:6 or John 1:1 down my throat as if they counter my point in any way.


Great verse!


Jn14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Why would Jesus say this if all we need is love? 


Can’t we be reconciled to the Father just by loving?


Hebrews 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him


 Why would Hebrews say we need faith and to seek Him if all we need is love?


Christ-centrism is a later invention (starting from Athanasius and brought to fruition by Augustine) by your fellow-Jesus-cultists (a.k.a. "True Christians").


Great assertion. However, you'd have to offer some support for anyone to see it as reasonable.


Jesus never said: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye worship Me as your saviour.;


Did I say that he did? Nope{Strawman alert}


He said: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


Why then would Paul say in 1 Cor 15 that if Jesus Christ didn’t rise their faith was in vain? How could that be if the gospel is just about “love?


Why all the warnings about false gods, and false christs if all one has to do is “love”?


Furthermore, Jesus is talking to his disciples. He is telling them how THEY will be recognized as Christ’s disciples. He is NOT saying this is how one becomes a disciple - i.e. "just love". No one comes to the father except through Jesus Christ in whom we need to have faith and seek. It is relatively easy for one to take one verse in isolation with all others and say “all you need is love.” It is much more difficult to take all the pertinent verses and come to an understanding.


In any case you seem to have some issues with Christian theology but this is a forum to discuss LDS theology. I don’t think the mods would like it too much if two non-Mormons were discussing CT here. So you’ll have to take it to an appropriate forum

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 5:29AM #39
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,903

Mark 12:29-31 (highlights added)



29 Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’b]">[b] This is the first commandment.c]">[c] 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’d]">[d] There is no other commandment greater than these.”


1 John 4:8


8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


The first, neither the second, commandment from God to the follower of Christ is not 'worship the Son as the Lord your God'. If it were, then Christ's disciples should indeed be known for worshipping the Son as their Lord rather than for loving one another. It would have also been more clearly and more often articulated in the gospels. Yet the latter is what Jesus highlights.


The gospels are rather clear on the keynote of Christian faith. Love. The gospels do not say "All you need is love". The Beatles did. That's your strawman. On this board, the Mormons are doing a better job than "True Christians" by the simple measure of love. I'd say not bad for "non-Christians".


Kind regards,


LilWabbit


 

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 5:35AM #40
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,903

It is not the empty name of Jesus that a true Christian accepts, nor personal salvation through a mere name that he hankers after. It is the divine attributes He manifests that ultimately touch him. And the greatest of them is love.


A Christian


A Christian has Faith in Christ


Not in the want of salvation,


for Faith seeks no gratification;


Not for miracles and wondrous works,


for Faith needs no external assurance;


Not in the dread of damnation,


for Faith fears neither fire nor sorrow;


Not as a Gift of the Spirit,


for Faith devoid of Will is dead;


Not blindly because the Book decrees,


for Faith devoid of Heart is hollow.


 


A Christian has Faith in Christ


Because of His abounding Compassion,


for He loved a child unlike any mortal;


Because of His penetrating Knowledge,


for He made mere fishermen the teachers of men;


Because of His sublime Dominion,


for He spoke with authority not vested in created things.


 


For Faith rejoices in a single word of His counsel to the Apostles,


and in His bold rebuke of the Pharisees;


With the breaking of the bread at the Last Supper,


and the silence of His suffering.


 


For mortal eyes see god where Faith sees but dust,


and Faith sees God where mortal eyes see but dust.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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