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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:28PM #11
Ironhold
Posts: 11,461

May 1, 2012 -- 8:29PM, Joe68 wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 7:08PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Ya know this whole form is suppose to be polite and you asking us what we believe. It's not suppose to be you telling us we're not Christians. 




Most of the forums in the “Visitor Centers” section of Beliefnet have descriptions and most of them go something like “For questions about X religion, to discuss X theology and to promote the X faith". The Mormon "Visitor Center" has no description at all.


I’ve asked questions about the LDS faith and discussed the LDS faith. Both of which are well within that general description.


But am I to believe that this forum is for those of the LDS faith to have an unchallengeable soapbox to say whatever they want?  If a Mormon makes a historical, factual, or logical error is that error supposed to just to stand unopposed?  If a Mormon misrepresents their own faith or that of another then those misrepresentations are supposed to just stand unopposed?  


You should realize that when anyone who believes that God one of many gods, that god was once a man, that they can become a god themselves, that Jesus does not save one completely by faith, and then they say that thier faith is Christian or that they are Christians they are misrepresenting the historical Biblical Christian faith.  


You seem to think this forum is more like a personal blog where Mormons can say what they want and moderate any comments themselves or not have any opposing comment. But I don’t think that the purpose of this forum is for any Mormon to give a false or misleading representation of the Christian faith.


If you want to promote the Mormon religion feel free. But if you make a historical, factual, or logical error or misrepresent the Christian faith I most likely will feel compelled to respond.








What WWA is trying to tell you is that there's a dedicated Mormonism Debate board a few clicks down.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 12:12AM #12
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 1, 2012 -- 9:28PM, Ironhold wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 8:29PM, Joe68 wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 7:08PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Ya know this whole form is suppose to be polite and you asking us what we believe. It's not suppose to be you telling us we're not Christians. 




Most of the forums in the “Visitor Centers” section of Beliefnet have descriptions and most of them go something like “For questions about X religion, to discuss X theology and to promote the X faith". The Mormon "Visitor Center" has no description at all.


I’ve asked questions about the LDS faith and discussed the LDS faith. Both of which are well within that general description.


But am I to believe that this forum is for those of the LDS faith to have an unchallengeable soapbox to say whatever they want?  If a Mormon makes a historical, factual, or logical error is that error supposed to just to stand unopposed?  If a Mormon misrepresents their own faith or that of another then those misrepresentations are supposed to just stand unopposed?  


You should realize that when anyone who believes that God one of many gods, that god was once a man, that they can become a god themselves, that Jesus does not save one completely by faith, and then they say that thier faith is Christian or that they are Christians they are misrepresenting the historical Biblical Christian faith.  


You seem to think this forum is more like a personal blog where Mormons can say what they want and moderate any comments themselves or not have any opposing comment. But I don’t think that the purpose of this forum is for any Mormon to give a false or misleading representation of the Christian faith.


If you want to promote the Mormon religion feel free. But if you make a historical, factual, or logical error or misrepresent the Christian faith I most likely will feel compelled to respond.








What WWA is trying to tell you is that there's a dedicated Mormonism Debate board a few clicks down.



I understand what WWA was saying.


But this is also a forum - i.e. a public meeting place for open discussion.


I don't believe that the intent of this forum is to allow Mormons the carte blanche to say whatever they want no matter however inaccurate, no matter how much they misrepresent other faiths.


As I said before if I you make a historical, factual, or logical error or misrepresent the Christian faith I most likely will feel compelled to respond.


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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 8:37AM #13
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,131

Joe: I’ve asked questions about the LDS faith and discussed the LDS faith. Both of which are well within that general description.



I’ve been here on beliefnet for well over 10 years, I think. After a lot of complaining we finally made an agreement with the really heavy antis and beliefnet. The debate board is for discussions like, you’re a cult and you’re all going to hell. This sections is for honest questions like; please explain what you believe about God?


You said; No matter how you define it the Mormon Jesus is radically different than the Jesus that Christians worship.


See you have implied I’m not Christian.


Christianity is a tent which includes many different denominations who all disagree with each other. There was an Orthodox Coptic Christian who went to a Christian meeting on how to handle the Muslim problem and when he got there the other Christians refused to seat him. He was incensed, his form of Christianity was perhaps a thousand years old than their forms of Christianity. We have to stop fighting among ourselves.


You could have written ‘the Mormon Jesus is radically different that the Jesus most Christians worship’. I would agree with you fully but let’s not argue over whose Christian and whose not.


Now I haven’t said much because I avoid the debate board like the plague. There are a couple of mean spirited people there and I no longer wish to have contention in my life. I enjoy the scripture study, it helps me come to a deeper appreciation for them. But let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:19AM #14
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA, with the warning Christians are given in the NT about false Christs and false gospels it is difficult to understand your view that we must accept anyone and every one who says “I’m a Christian” – That certainly wasn’t Paul view. Or Jesus’s


Galatians 1 6-9 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!


Matthew 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many


Matthew 24:24–25 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. “Behold, I have told you in advance.


2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.


2 Timothy 4:3–4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths


Matthew 24:4-5 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.


So what is one to do? Just accept everybody who says, “I’m a Christian”?  Apparently we are to examine what anyone teaches to see if they are in agreement with the Scriptures.


Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.


1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;


 That is the Biblical model. That is the Christian model.


You say that you are Christian so you would want to follow the Biblical Christian model for determining truth from error, right?


And if that is not enough then you’d at least follow the advice of you very own prophet when he said, “I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who represents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, V16, p 46)

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:30AM #15
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,131

Joel Osteen; "When I hear Mitt Romney say that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God – that he's the Christ, raised from the dead, that he's his Savior – that's good enough for me,"



The question is how should Christianity be defined? Does one have to pledge allegiance to a certain set of beliefs to be qualify as Christian.


The problem lies with, Christian = saved, kind of definition which all goes back to the Athanasian Creed. It reads


“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic (Universal) faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship…” A,B and C about God. If you don’t believe A, B and C about God then you are not saved.


The emphases is on what a person believes.


I suppose it’s because we feel all mankind will be saved eventually we don’t really emphasis what a person believes as much.


The Lord was more concerned with;


“ I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me….Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me”.


When we go to church and sit in our class rooms our lessons are more on righteous living, being a good example, exercising faith, being good parents, loving our neighbor. I teach the 9 year olds in primary last year we went through the New Testament this year it’s the Book of Mormon. Our first lesson was Nephi followed his father, how can you obey your parents? Another lesson was on Enos’ prayer for salvation and how he loved his brethren. The questions are about prayer and loving others.


Yes we do explain the jot and tittle but with a purpose behind it.


“If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves…It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another..” Joseph Smith


By understanding who God is and what our relationship is with him then we can become more like him. We are his children he loves us as his children. If we see ourselves thusly we can take our pains and sorrows to him because he is more real, more understanding. We also begin to treat others as our brothers and sisters, we see the whole world in a different light. Our love for others grows and we learn to serve; visit the sick, feed the hungry etc.


It’s not that we believe thus and thus which saves us but that by knowing who God is we will more likely grow in Christ like love.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:46AM #16
Joe68
Posts: 289

An atheist can give to the poor. Does that make him a Christian?


A pagan can obey her parents. Does that make her Christian?


Even those who think that they are followers of Christ [i.e. a “Christian”] will be turned away by Christ himself:


Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’  Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Hmm. They called Him Lord, and they did many good things in His name.


But Jesus didn’t say, “You haven’t done enough” he said, “I never knew you”.  They obviously thought that they were following Jesus but since they were not, they were obviously following a false christ. Hence the warnings given in the Bible cited in my post above.


It is not about having the right doctrines per se. But those right doctrines point one; lead one to the true Christ. If for example if ones gospel cannot be supported by the Scriptures it is a false gospel. If ones teachings about God or Christ leads one to believe He is something other then what is taught in the Bible then the God or Christ one believes in or trusts actually is a false god or christ.


That is Joel Osteen’s mistake. He hears someone say they “believe in Jesus” and he makes a conclusion without examining the Scriptures to see if the Jesus that this person believes in passes the “Scriptural” test.


As I said before the God, Christ, and Gospel that the Mormons believe in are all very, very different from what Christians believe. And the reason that Christian do not accept the claim that Mormons are Christian is because of those differences and because the Christian view is supported by the Bible and the Mormon view is not. That is the "examine the Scriptures" test.


See here for an example.  A couple of LDS tried to show that their version of the gospel was in accordance with the Bible but they could not reconcile Paul's words [last part of post 29] with Mormon teachings. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:46PM #17
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,131

Joe; That is Joel Osteen’s mistake. He hears someone say they “believe in Jesus” and he makes a conclusion without examining the Scriptures to see if the Jesus that this person believes in passes the “Scriptural” test.



I’m sure he understands but he’s more about bringing people together than dividing. He’s not going to change Mitt and he’s not going to change me he leaves the judgment up to God.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 4:06PM #18
Ironhold
Posts: 11,461

May 2, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Joe68 wrote:


An atheist can give to the poor. Does that make him a Christian?


A pagan can obey her parents. Does that make her Christian?



What about the Christian who doesn't do those things?


I think that might be what Jesus was growing concerned with.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:39AM #19
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 2, 2012 -- 4:06PM, Ironhold wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Joe68 wrote:


An atheist can give to the poor. Does that make him a Christian?


A pagan can obey her parents. Does that make her Christian?



What about the Christian who doesn't do those things?


I think that might be what Jesus was growing concerned with.



Christianity has always been about orthodoxy and orthopraxy.


But one should not ignore what the Bible says about Christians and sin:


If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1John 1:8-10


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 1:09PM #20
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 2, 2012 -- 1:46PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Joe; That is Joel Osteen’s mistake. He hears someone say they “believe in Jesus” and he makes a conclusion without examining the Scriptures to see if the Jesus that this person believes in passes the “Scriptural” test.



I’m sure he understands but he’s more about bringing people together than dividing. He’s not going to change Mitt and he’s not going to change me he leaves the judgment up to God.



Actually Osteen did make a judgement, he judged the LDS to be Christian. But if one listens to the video clip Osteen says he has never studied Mormon theology.  How can a reasonable person think that Osteen's evaluation has any validity if he does not know what the LDS actually teach?


In any case the standard is not "listen to Joel Osteen" but "examine the Scriptures". Something that Osteen says he didn't do.  

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