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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 8:16PM #41
Joe68
Posts: 289

Lilwabbit: Mark 12:29-31 (highlights added)


29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no other commandment greater than these.”


Well let’s see what the rest of the passage says:


 Mark 12:32-32 32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


So Jesus recognizes the man’s monotheism and his understanding of love but yet says you are not far from the kingdom of God.  So there must be something else he is missing.


 Could it be what I posted earlier?  Faith in the risen Christ?


1 Cor 15: 1-4 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, H)"4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


Yup, that’s it. Here Paul plainly states what the gospel is. That Christ rose from the dead, that we recieve it by faith, and it saves us.


1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


The passage is a bit more expansive than just merely speaking about love.


1 Jn 4:9 to 1 Jn 5:5 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.


13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God


Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.  2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, "4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


Again one cannot, if one takes the Bible seriously, deny that it is faith in the risen Christ -our atoning sacrifice - that is the cornerstone of the faith as the Apostle John just hammers home that point above .  


Those two verses you cited along with the two previously cited:


Jn14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him


All scream out the necessity of faith in the risen Christ.  And one's love flows out from one's restored relationship with the Father.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:53AM #42
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,892

You didn't invalidate my point. My point is that love is the greatest commandment, and that Jesus epitomized love. He should be accepted for the fact that His love touches us genuinely. Not because of lesser motives of personal salvation, dread of damnation or miraculous accounts of resurrection. The latter three are ultimately weaker and more flesh-appealing foundations of faith. Hence they are often tested amid Christians, and a chronic source of doubt to many. The purpose of becoming a Christian is not to just continue idly accepting Christ, inviting others to do so and shouting "hallelujah!". It is to love God with all one's soul and to love one's neighbour as oneself. There's no two ways about the greatest commandments. The very act of acceptance of Christ is itself an act of love, as well as geared towards accepting the two greatest commandments as Jesus articulates them in the gospels (which is far more emphatic than the Jewish formulation). Otherwise the acceptance of Christ is empty and devoid of purpose.


It is not enough for a Jew to accept the two love commandments as the greatest while still holding on to the Sinaitic Covenant, since Jesus gives new meaning, new power and new spirit to these commanments. It is in fact Jesus who asserts that these two are indeed the greatest of all the commandments given on Sinai (His relative contemporaries, rabbis Hillel and Akiva highlighted the love of man as the greatest). A Jew who would accept Jesus' assertion would indeed be "near" the Kingdom of God, but not quite there still. He would still be missing out on Jesus example and words on what love is all about, and stick to a weaker and older version of love. But once he becomes a Christian, the love commandments as further explained and reinforced by Christ become the foundation of his faith. Then he is in the Kingdom.


The Mormons have understood these greatest commandments as Jesus explains them throughout the gospels, even though their theology is not strict monotheism. But neither is yours if we choose to go down that road.


I think both of our viewpoints have become abundantly clear and I'll leave you all to it. You highlight the Messenger. I highlight the Message. And so do the gospels. But I hope you keep your debate constructive and not aimed at disproving Mormonism. Shooting someone else's faith down is not a particularly fruitful foundation for an interfaith dialogue. But if you're not even interested in dialogue (I'm happy you are now sending me the signals that you are indeed capable of dialogue), then state it openly so that the Mormons on this board do not need to waste their time defending their faith.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 9:18AM #43
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 8, 2012 -- 1:53AM, Lilwabbit wrote:


You didn't invalidate my point. My point is that love is the greatest commandment, and that Jesus epitomized love. He should be accepted for the fact that His love touches us genuinely. Not because of lesser motives of personal salvation, dread of damnation or miraculous accounts of resurrection. The latter three are ultimately weaker and more flesh-appealing foundations of faith. Hence they are often tested amid Christians, and a chronic source of doubt to many. The purpose of becoming a Christian is not to just continue idly accepting Christ, inviting others to do so and shouting "hallelujah!". It is to love God with all one's soul and to love one's neighbour as oneself. There's no two ways about the greatest commandments. The very act of acceptance of Christ is itself an act of love, as well as geared towards accepting the two greatest commandments as Jesus articulates them in the gospels (which is far more emphatic than the Jewish formulation). Otherwise the acceptance of Christ is empty and devoid of purpose.


It is not enough for a Jew to accept the two love commandments as the greatest while still holding on to the Sinaitic Covenant, since Jesus gives new meaning, new power and new spirit to these commanments. It is in fact Jesus who asserts that these two are indeed the greatest of all the commandments given on Sinai (His relative contemporaries, rabbis Hillel and Akiva highlighted the love of man as the greatest). A Jew who would accept Jesus' assertion would indeed be "near" the Kingdom of God, but not quite there still. He would still be missing out on Jesus example and words on what love is all about, and stick to a weaker and older version of love. But once he becomes a Christian, the love commandments as further explained and reinforced by Christ become the foundation of his faith. Then he is in the Kingdom.


The Mormons have understood these greatest commandments as Jesus explains them throughout the gospels, even though their theology is not strict monotheism. But neither is yours if we choose to go down that road.


I think both of our viewpoints have become abundantly clear and I'll leave you all to it. You highlight the Messenger. I highlight the Message. And so do the gospels. But I hope you keep your debate constructive and not aimed at disproving Mormonism. Shooting someone else's faith down is not a particularly fruitful foundation for an interfaith dialogue. But if you're not even interested in dialogue (I'm happy you are now sending me the signals that you are indeed capable of dialogue), then state it openly so that the Mormons on this board do not need to waste their time defending their faith.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit




You didn't invalidate my point. My point is that love is the greatest commandment, and that Jesus epitomized love.


I thought your point was that “The faith Jesus taught in the gospels was never salvation-centric but love-centric? (see your post 28)


Jesus taught that


 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind is the greatest commandment in the Law.


The 2nd greatest is Love your neighbor as yourself…”


As I pointed out above the Christian faith is founded upon the person and work of Jesus Christ. He is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Without who he is and what he did on the cross the faith would be null and void.




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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:03PM #44
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

Still waiting for an answer to my question.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 1:12PM #45
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 8, 2012 -- 1:03PM, Ironhold wrote:


Still waiting for an answer to my question.



Assuming your question was:


Is a self-professed Christian who lives in sin - by which I mean they lie, cheat, steal, and do all sorts of other actions - any better than a "non-Christian" who lives a life of virtue?


I answered you in post 33 - I'll repost it here.


The problem is that you are trying to come to some sort of conclusion without considering all the types of people. In general terms one could breakdown the types of people in the world into four categories.


1) One who rejects* the Biblical Christ and lives a life of sin.


2) One who rejects the Biblical Christ but tries to live a righteous life.


3) One who accepts the Biblical Christ but lives a life of sin.


4) One who accepts the Biblical Christ and tries to live a righteous life


You are only considering type 2 and 3. They are both in the same boat concerning their eternal destination, joining up with type 1 on the way. Type 4 will have a much different post life experience.


If one wishes to get into the splitting of the hairs then one would then have to be able to determine which is worse: being an out right sinner, following a false Christ, or being a hypocritical or false believer. For me I say let God sort that out.


Also I bristle at the term “better”. Type 4 is not necessarily “better” than the others. I’d say they conform themselves to what Jesus desires of all people and thus are in a much more preferred position concerning their relation to God.


*Reject can be taken to mean not accept or be indifferent.




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2 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2012 - 6:27PM #46
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,543

I write here accepting the fact that most reader’s will only accept what they want to accept and will listen to their Ego more often than the Lord. Yet I post this anyway with hope and good wishes for all. Bold print is mine. (JESSE)


FROM LDS.ORG, which I recommend searching for more truth of Fathers Gospel for there is so much more than what I post here.


Kingdoms of Glory


"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the Celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;


"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).


(Hmmm Agency involved here, Jesse)


 


Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2).


 Telestial Kingdom


Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.


(Agency again involved here, Jesse)


Terrestrial Kingdom


Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–80, 91, 97.


 


(Hmmm, it does seem that Agency is involved in movement up from one to another)


We never lose Agency, we had it in the pre-existence, we have it here and it will stay with us forever.


Jesse


*


"Man is only wise while he searches for wisdom; if he thinks he's found 

it, he's a fool."

--- Rabbi ibn-Gavrioel

 

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2012 - 1:10AM #47
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,543

There is one thing that I have not noted in this discussion is that our heavenly parents have endowed all of their children with the “Light Of Christ” to (or if you call it something else that is ok too) allow all of us to know right from wrong. That so many bury that Light so that they may gain power over others is sad. Yet that Light is there for all to be turned on with humble prayer.


Yet here we have the words of Groucho Marx: “The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you have got it made. “
Jesse Laughing


*


"The best things in life aren't things."

 -   Art Buchwald
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