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Switch to Forum Live View Requirements to enter the Mormon heaven.
2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:19PM #1
Joe68
Posts: 289

There are three "heavens" in Mormon theology and in order to get into the Telestial kingdom one needs to do almost nothing.


Teachers Manual Lesson 8: The Three Kingdoms of Glory Preparing for Exaltation: Teacher’s Manual, (1998), 38–43


Who Will Inherit Telestial Glory?


Those who Reject the gospel and Reject the testimony of Jesus


The Plan of Salvation


Telestial kingdom. Those who continue in their sins and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom.


Gospel Principles Chapter 36


The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world.


The three kingdoms of heaven


The people in this third kingdom were not righteous on earth. They did not believe in Jesus or the prophets. They were not baptized. They did not obey God’s commandments.


And remember the Telestial kingdom is heaven!


General conference report


God thus takes into merciful account not only our desires and our performance, but also the degrees of difficulty which our varied circumstances impose upon us. No wonder we will not complain at the final judgment, especially since even the telestial kingdom’s glory “surpasses all understanding (D&C 76:89). God delights in blessing us, especially when we realize “joy in that which [we] have desired” (D&C 7:8).


So the Telestial Kingdom and its glory which “surpasses all understanding" is for those who


1) REJECT the gospel,


2) REJECT Jesus Christ,


3) continue in their sins,


4) do not repent,


5) were not baptized


6) did not obey God’s commandments


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:47PM #2
Joe68
Posts: 289

So as to not de-rail other threads I’m re-posting Ironhold’s comments concerning Mormon salvation here. Ironhold said that the LDS do not teach salvation without faith, Jesus, or his gospel.


My response was: Then you simply do not know Mormon doctrine.


Ironhold: Translation: "I don't want to lose face by losing this debate, and so I'll make a highly absurd and rather patronizing claim just like so many who came before me."


Two can play that game IH: Translation “I can’t address what was posted from official Mormon church sources pertaining to the Mormon salvation without faith, Jesus, his gospel and etc so I’ll just call it absurd”


 Just as Mormons could not address the verses from the Bible that teach that works play no part in obtaining salvation (they are a result of it) in the Sola fida thread, here you can not address official Mormon teaching on the way to salvation.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:29PM #3
Ironhold
Posts: 10,913
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:32PM #4
Ironhold
Posts: 10,913

So the Telestial Kingdom and its glory which “surpasses all understanding" is for those who



The Telestial Kingdom is still the bargain model; few people actively aim for it, and instead shoot a lot higher.


We've tried to explain this to you already, but you keep putting your fingers in your ears.


I wonder if your minister even knows just how poorly you're presenting mainline Christianity. (S)he'd probably cry if your posts were made public.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:51PM #5
Joe68
Posts: 289

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:32PM, Ironhold wrote:


So the Telestial Kingdom and its glory which “surpasses all understanding" is for those who



The Telestial Kingdom is still the bargain model; few people actively aim for it, and instead shoot a lot higher.


We've tried to explain this to you already, but you keep putting your fingers in your ears.


I wonder if your minister even knows just how poorly you're presenting mainline Christianity. (S)he'd probably cry if your posts were made public.




As I’ve said before – after you raised the exact same objection - it does not matter if the Telestial kingdom is the “bargain” model that not everyone seeks. It is still heaven and whose “glory surpasses all understanding”.


I’m glad to see that you do not attempt to refute this clear Mormon doctrine that salvation can be obtained without Jesus Christ, faith, the gospel.


 IH, “…if your posts were made public


You do realize that this is a public forum?




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:53PM #6
Joe68
Posts: 289

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:29PM, Ironhold wrote:


"All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized … that … have truly repented of all their sins … shall be received by baptism into his church"


Right there in the Gospel Principles manual, dude.


So you were saying?




From your own link “We Must Be Baptized to Enter the Celestial Kingdom” - note it does not say that one must be baptized for salvation or enterance into heaven, it is just for the celestial kingdom.


Just as I was saying the LDS teach that "baptism is NOT for salvation" but for entrance into the highest Mormon heaven. One can, according to the official Mormon links in the OP, obtain heaven without baptism.


Thanks for yet another official LDS link to prove my point.




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:29PM #7
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,927

Now you are trying to tell us what we believe. 



The real question is, what are we being saved from?



Your quote; The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world.


You see Joe our God is not a monster who would torture his children in a lake of fire forever and ever.


Our God is a loving Heavenly Father whose hand is always outstretched.


What you’re missing is that these spirit children of God will spend a millennium in the spirit prison racked with the pains of a damn soul, paying for their own sin. They do not receive their salvation from sin through faith and baptism. When they emerge from that state they will face Christ and have to bow their knees to him recognizing him as God.


I’m not sure about their need for baptism they have paid for their own sins, good question I’ll have to ask an expert.



If they still will not do this then it’s outer darkness for them, there will only be a small group like this maybe three or four. 


Do you understand now? Faith causes us to act and take that step into the waters of baptism, that is why faith saves us from the consequence or punishment of committing sin. Baptism washes away our sins and we don’t have to pay for them.


Those who do not take this step or act of faith then have to pay for their own sins, Christ mercy through his blood will not cover them. The payment does come to an end, it does not last forever and our Father’s love will reach every child eventually.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:48PM #8
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,927

Joe; From your own link “We Must Be Baptized to Enter the Celestial Kingdom” - note it does not say that one must be baptized for salvation or enterance into heaven, it is just for the celestial kingdom.


You’re taking one line and trying to fit it in the middle of a whole thought.


Baptism puts all our past sins behind us and sets us on the path toward the Celestial Kingdom. At that time we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to be our eternal companion. He will guide us through all of life’s temptations, humble us when we need it. We can renew the covenants we make at baptism by repenting and partaking of the sacrament. We can not enter the Celestial Kingdom without this first step and this baptism of fire which must take place.


But the most important thing we must learn is charity, real Christ like love. Years ago my husband’s grandmother was in the hospital and I was doing my duty to visit her. In walks a cousin who was not such a righteous person and I had looked down my self righteous nose at her. She whipped out a pair of toenail cutters got down on her knees and proceed to cut her grandmother’s toenails.


I was humbly reminded of the passage


“ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:….I was sick, and ye visited me”

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 11:44PM #9
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA writes: Now you are trying to tell us what we believe.


I provided many links to show what the Mormon Church teaches concerning baptism and heaven. If you do not know what your own church teaches that is not to be laid at my feet.    


You see Joe our God is not a monster who would torture his children in a lake of fire forever and ever.


Actually the LDS does teach this. After noting the differences between the temporary spirit prison there is this quote:


Hell….it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46). See here  


WWA writes: What you’re missing is that these spirit children of God will spend a millennium in the spirit prison racked with the pains of a damn soul, paying for their own sin. They do not receive their salvation from sin through faith and baptism. When they emerge from that state they will face Christ and have to bow their knees to him recognizing him as God.


Thank you for admitting what I’ve been saying! They do not receive their salvation from sin through faith and baptism. Or what I’ve been quoting official LDS sources as saying.


If they still will not do this then it’s outer darkness for them, there will only be a small group like this maybe three or four.


Is this (i.e. only a group of 3 or 4) LDS doctrine? Or just a hopeful guess on your part? In any case the LDS agree with Christians that some will end up in a permanent eternal hell. See the link above where the Mormon church says the those in hell will dwell there eternally.


(Joe quote): From your own link “We Must Be Baptized to Enter the Celestial Kingdom” - note it does not say that one must be baptized for salvation or entrance into heaven; it is just for the celestial kingdom.


WWA: You’re taking one line and trying to fit it in the middle of a whole thought.


Except for those links to official LDS websites that confirm that Baptism is NOT needed for the telestial kingdom.   


Baptism puts all our past sins behind us and sets us on the path toward the Celestial Kingdom.


This is exactly what I said; baptism in Mormon thought is for the celestial kingdom not salvation or heaven. It is just to obtain the highest heaven in LDS theology.  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:40AM #10
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,927

Joe; Hell….it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46)


Let’s look at the whole definition;


“Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).


Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).


This second hell is discussing outer darkness which we don’t really know much about. Satan, his angels and a very few others will be consigned to this place.


Joe; This is exactly what I said; baptism in Mormon thought is for the celestial kingdom not salvation or heaven. It is just to obtain the highest heaven in LDS theology.


No you are twisting my words around and playing with the word saved. You are taking your theology with it's own terms and meanings and trying to place it over the top of Mormonism, thus creating confussion.


What are you being saved from??



Baptism is for the remission of sins. It must be done so that one does not have to pay for their own sins. That is salvation, Now after that the Bible says;


“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16


Anyone going to the Celestial Kingdom must enter at the gate/baptism they must show that act of faith, they must be sinnless. Though their sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow.  But I could be baptized all day long and if I have not charity I have nothing to show. I could be baptized and enter into one of the other kingdoms, it’s no guarantee.


I’m wondering why you are running around on this subject?

Wise men still seek him.
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